Indie game consultant Joe Quadara (aka Joe Q) joined me on Ditching Hourly to share his journey from putting out fires for indie game studios to advising them to accurately scope and fund their projects.Joe's Links:Joe's website: RecurverJoe on LinkedIn AI Summary: In this episode, game developer turned consultant Joe Quidara shares his journey from putting out fires for game studios to helping studios accurately scope and fund their projects. He explains how developing deep expertise about the indie game industry allows him to quickly assess and advise studios, creating leverage in his consulting business. Chapters:[00:00:00] Introductions[00:07:00] The size of the video game market[00:10:00] What is indie game consulting?[00:14:00] The appeal of weird, indie games [00:19:00] What an indie game studio looks like[00:23:00] From firefighting to preventing fires in game studios  [00:28:00] Helping studios accurately scope and fund projects[00:32:00] Creating a sustainable indie game studio model [00:35:00] Leveraging expertise to streamline the consulting process[00:41:00] The benefits of specialization for consultants[00:46:00] Keeping an open mind while leveraging expertise  [00:48:00] Conclusion The next time someone asks you for your hourly rate, I want you to stop what you're doing and head on over to valuepricingbootcamp.com to sign up for my free value pricing email course.Hope to see you there!

Bryghtpath CEO and Ditcherville lifetime resident Bryan Strawser joined me on Ditching Hourly to share the secrets behind his huge business wins in 2023. Bryan's Links:Website: https://bryghtpath.com/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/BryghtpathPodcast: https://bryghtpath.com/resources/managing-uncertainty-podcast/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanstrawser/Summary (ai generated):In this episode of Ditching Hourly, Jonathan Stark interviews Bryan Strausser of BrightPath about how positioning his consulting firm and using program evaluation "roadmaps" as a first engagement with clients has led to major growth and 7-figure revenue. They discuss Bryan's journey from generalist consultant to focused niche positioning, using content marketing and authority building to attract ideal clients, the roadmapping process to diagnose client needs before prescribing solutions, how to price and sell high-value services, and building ongoing managed services for recurring revenue.  Chapters:[00:00:00] Introduction [00:02:00] From generalist to focused positioning[00:08:00] Attracting clients through content marketing [00:13:00] Client onboarding with program evaluation roadmaps[00:21:00] Using the podcast to build authority [00:25:00] The importance of positioning[00:28:00] Pricing and selling high-value services [00:36:00] The roadmapping sales process[00:44:00] Writing effective proposals [00:51:00] Increasing profits through pricing [00:53:00] Growing through managed services[00:56:00] Conclusion ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like:Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time?Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space?Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal?Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The Real Reason You Started A BusinessYou started a business to help people - and you do help people! - but let’s be honest... you could help people as an employee working for someone else.The real reason you started a business was for the freedom.The freedom of doing what you want, when you want, where you want, with whom you want.So, if you’ve been running your business for a while, but the freedom just hasn’t come yet, I have something that might help.Get your freedom without compromising your business successFolks often ask how I can possibly maintain... a daily mailing list a weekly podcast monthly course launches a coaching community with 700+ members a group of private coaching clients and more... ...all completely on my own without a single employee or VA or anything.I know it seems like I must be working all the time, but the reality is that I get all this done in just a few hours per week.Most weeks, it feels like I spend more time at karate and the gym than doing anything work-related.Heck, I recently took the kids to Disney World for a week, and my business output didn’t miss a beat.Go behind-the-scenesIf you’ve ever wondered how I sustain such a high level of productivity year after year, you’re in luck.On Thursday, December 7th, 2023 at 1:00pm ET, I am giving a behind-the-scenes look at the ruthlessly simple time management system I use to run my solo practice.The webinar is NOT open to the public.If you want to attend, you must be a member of my Ditcherville coaching community.Here’s a sample of what to expect: How I process my inbox in five minutes or less How I use my calendar differently than most people How I use my todo lists to prevent getting overwhelmed How I use SOPs to supercharge my productivity and conserve creative energy How my systems work together to keep me focused, not distracted Live Q&AThere will be plenty of time for Q&A, so if there’s something I don’t cover that you’re interested in, ask. I’ll answer every question, even if I have to stay late to do it.Will it be recorded?Yes, the presentation will be recorded, but the replay will only be available for 48 hours. After that, it’s gone for good.This is the first time I’ve shared this info anywhere. I don’t know if I’ll do it again. So, this might be your only chance to get a behind-the-scenes look at how I run my business.See you there?If you feel like you’re working so hard that you can’t get ahead and desperately want to get back to running your business instead of it running you, I hope to see you on Thursday, December 7 at 1:00pm ET.Click below to become a member of Ditcherville and get access to this private presentation:JOIN NOW »Monthly, annual, and lifetime memberships are available.The Benefits of MembershipOf course, the webinar access is just the beginning.When you join more than 700 of your colleagues in Ditcherville, you’ll get instant access to the following:💬 24/7 asynchronous discussion and support in the Ditcherville Slack🎟️ Invitations to all future Ditcherville LIVE Q&A sessions🔦 A searchable database of 700+ individual questions with answers in audio and video format (more than 150 hours!)📚 My library of email sequences, business templates, coaching questions, daily emails, and more👂 A private audio podcast feed of past Q&A sessions so you can binge-listen to the back catalog hands-freeIf not now, when?Don’t waste another year moving one inch in every direction.Join my group coaching community today and get the answers you need to start moving forward again.Here’s the link again:JOIN NOW »I hope to see you in Ditcherville soon!Yours,—J

The handsome and talented Louis Grenier had me on Everyone Hates Marketers to go behind the scenes on how I run my business.Much to my delight (and true to form), he asked very specific and pointed questions so we could avoid the typical BS you hear on business podcasts.It's also on YouTube if you prefer to watch:Watch Now »Louis’ Links:https://www.everyonehatesmarketers.com/links ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Alexander Lapa joined me on ditching Hourly for a tour-de-force journey through the paths available to tech folks operating with a post-hourly mentality. Talking Points: Setting fixed prices and sticking to them can result in profitable client relationships. Specializing in a specific target market, such as nonprofits, improves marketing efforts and increases client trust. Value-based pricing allows for more freedom and flexibility, including the ability to take vacations without compromising income.  Alex's Links: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexanderlapa/ Consulting: https://dryadconsulting.com/ Product: https://dryadreceipting.com/ Newsletter: https://thegoodenoughconsultant.com/ Podcast: https://dryadconsulting.com/podcast Notes: (AI generated)Salesforce architect Alexander Lapa shares his journey of transitioning from hourly billing to fixed pricing in the nonprofit industry. He discusses the motivations behind the switch, the challenges faced, and the significant benefits experienced through value-based pricing. Lapa emphasizes the importance of scoping projects, creating template proposals for efficiency, and offering advisory and mentoring services tailored to each client's unique needs. The shift to fixed pricing improved client relationships, increased revenue, and provided more freedom and flexibility. Additionally, the transcript highlights the advantages of customizing the Salesforce platform for specific organizational requirements, de-risking the investment, and increasing ROI. Also explored are the processes, challenges, and benefits of building apps on the Salesforce platform, as well as the value of being on Salesforce's AppExchange. Lapa shares insights on patience and understanding when working with Salesforce and offers valuable advice for beginners in the field. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Fellow daily emailer and No-BS marketer Rod Aparicio joined me on Ditching Hourly to bust the myth of personal branding.Rod’s Links Twitter Profile Email List AI SummaryIn this episode, Jonathan Stark and guest Rod Aparicio discuss the concept of personal brand and its misconceptions. They emphasize that personal brand is more about influencing perceptions rather than controlling how one is perceived. The importance of authenticity and credibility in building a personal brand is highlighted, along with the distinction between brand and reputation. The episode also explores the relevance of personal branding for solopreneurs and small businesses, emphasizing the need for positioning oneself and focusing on the needs of the target market rather than obsessing over self-image or becoming an influencer. Credibility and trust are emphasized as crucial factors in attracting and retaining clients for solopreneurs.Key Points Authenticity can be defined differently, with some emphasizing being true to oneself and others focusing on being different from others. Building a personal brand requires a curated version of oneself, but should align with one's values and not be hypocritical. Aspiration is the desire to become something, while inspiration is the internal motivation to do what one truly wants. Aspiration in personal branding could lead to a lack of authenticity and failure. Positioning oneself based on alignment and targeting the right audience is more valuable than building a personal brand. A credible offer, backed by testimonials, case studies, and referrals, builds trust with potential clients. Personal branding can lead to a sense of desperation and may not result in long-term success. Best Quotes “A personal brand is mainly how people can control how they want to be seen and perceived by others.” “A reputation can be linked to a person, and a brand is something that you make artificial.” ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Graphic designer, product marketer, and co-founder of Conversion Factory, Zach Stevens, joined me on Ditching Hourly to explain how he and his co-founders went from zero to more than $36k MRR in one month with a productized subscription business that helps SaaS teams turn traffic into revenue. Zach's links: https://www.conversionfactory.co/ https://twitter.com/zstvns https://www.designdive.co/ Talking Points:The fear of not being able to fulfill client expectations led to starting small with a hypothesis-driven approach.Communication is primarily done through asynchronous channels like Notion and Loom, with some exceptions for in-person meetings.Building rapport with clients and providing detailed explanations of deliverables enhances communication and feedback.Centralizing communication efforts avoids the nightmare of having to navigate multiple platforms and channels.Work-life harmony is about acknowledging that work and personal life will fluctuate in priority.Quotable Quotes:“Our conversion rate only had to be in the thousandths of a percentage point to be booked solid.”“We only wanna take on five clients at one time to see how well we manage the workload.”“More than half of our clients right now are on a higher strategy-based $9k/mo tier.”“At the initial onset, it did feel like there was a lot going on, but then it kind of fizzled out, and things got a lot smoother.”“We love using tools like Loom, anything that we can do to make it feel like we are in the room with them.”“If you follow this model and it works, you’re going to have way more concurrent clients than you’re used to.” ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

David Shriner-Cahn of Smashing the Plateau joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about how longtime corporate execs can increase the odds of going out on their own successfully. Key Points Taking the leap into entrepreneurship can be daunting, but with the right support and mentorship, it is possible to build a successful business. It's important to decide whether you want to look for another job or truly commit to building a business, as both require different mindsets and energies. Make the decision between being your own boss or maintaining the comfort of a steady paycheck. Understand the differences between being an employee and an entrepreneur. Identify your current stage in the transition and determine any obstacles holding you back. Validate your business idea by having conversations with people in your target market, industry experts, and potential clients. Joining a community of like-minded entrepreneurs can provide collaboration opportunities and support. Best Quotes"My mission in life is to help corporate refugees start, run, and grow their own businesses so they can do more of what they love and get paid what they're worth.""I was doing what I was taught to do in engineering school, which is to focus on solving engineering problems. What I didn't focus on was the fact that the company that I worked for had lost a huge portion of their business and ended up firing a significant chunk of the staff.""In those days, the model was you went to work for one of these big companies, and if you stayed there, usually it was like 20 plus years, you were eligible to receive a pension. And in those days, pensions were a defined benefit. So you really needed to be with one of these companies for a long time.""I really wanted to figure out a way to just be in control of my career and my family's financial health in a way that I knew that I wouldn't be as an employee.""At some point, you need to make a decision about whether you're going to look for another job or build a business because they require very different mindsets and activities.""What's way better is to talk to three kinds of people about the problem.""If you're looking for something that you can sell in your sleep, you know, an evergreen, like a digital product, then it would be a do-it-yourself."David’s Links https://smashingtheplateau.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidshrinercahn/ https://twitter.com/smashingplateau ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Our resident crypto/web3 expert and longtime friend of the show, Luke Willis, re-joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about how having a weekly podcast and daily mailing list contributed to a product launch that generated $39k in 24 hours.  Luke’s Links: https://lukewillis.com/ https://thekoinpress.com/ https://kap.domains/about SummaryIn this episode, Luke Willis discusses the successful launch of KAP, a blockchain app offering NFT name services. He reveals the mechanics behind the launch, the problem it solves, and the unique features of KoinOS blockchain. Luke shares how he generated $39,000 in just 24 hours and the key factors that contributed to his success. Additionally, Luke highlights the journey of building trust within the blockchain community, their initial DAPs, launch strategy, and positive reception. They provide a platform demonstration and emphasize the power of blockchain technology. Furthermore, Luke emphasizes the benefits of having a podcast and mailing list to build trust, authority, and attract a loyal audience for a successful launch.Key Points Luke Willis shares his experience and success in launching the KAP blockchain app. Pricing for KAP is based on the length of the name, with options available for various budgets. Experienced a spike in sales during the initial launch, followed by steady sales in the following weeks. Plan to expand the platform by launching a free tier, enabling users without coins to access and utilize the platform’s features. Launching during a crypto winter can still be successful. Speculating on tokens can lead to potential profits in the future. Building trust and authority through consistent content publishing. (Generated by podcastshownotes.ai) ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Denis Gontcharov joined me on Ditching Hourly for a coaching call to help brainstorm a positioning statement for his data consulting business targeting the aluminum industry. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The Agile Attorney, John Grant, joined me on Ditching Hourly to share how he helps his clients transition from inefficient workflows, WAY too much work, and low margins, to efficient workflows, a comfortable amount of work, and higher profits.Key Points Expectations for attention to detail and planning increase in high-dollar professional services like law practices. Many law practices lack upfront planning and make assumptions based on past experiences. Transition planning is often triggered by the need for change in firms that have been operating in the same way for many years. Maximizing employee utilization can lead to gridlock and hinder growth. Phased flat fees, where different phases of a case or project are billed at a flat rate, provide flexibility and room for adjustment. The desire for fixed pricing and the potential for higher rewards motivates software developers to move towards productization. In the legal industry, professionals are transitioning from delivery work to strategy work. Best Quotes “When the lawyer does plan, oftentimes they plan for this sort of ideal situation.” “If you are constantly having to do QA on other people’s work, it’s really hard to feel like you’re ever gonna get off that hamster wheel.” “The beautiful thing is that if you take the time and you begin to express your quality standards in a written form, then you can actually push those standards upstream.” “I think there’s been a ton of movement away from hourly billing. I think there’s more movement than most people in the profession want to recognize.” “Different ways of exchanging value for their services than they were certainly when I first hung my shingle back in 2008.” “It turned on this mechanism in my brain that immediately started asking, ‘How can I make this more effective and efficient, quicker, less work for me without cutting corners?’” “So it’s like even if they came close to what they would’ve made hourly, they have set themselves up in a way that they can deliver that thing probably in half of the time for the same money.” John's Links https://www.agileattorney.com/ https://law.builders/@AgileAttorney ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

James Williams of Cofebe.com joined me on Ditching Hourly to give what amounted to a masterclass on how to avoid failure and delight clients as a fractional CTO.“The chance of failure increases proportionally with you accepting what the client tells you what to do.”“If you accept 100% of your client’s suggestions and three months from they can’t launch or it fails, guess whose fault that is.”“If you keep the narrative on the goal, you can avoid debates about scope.”“I lead with questions from the back.”“I ask a trillion questions upfront to disqualify prospects before considering pricing.”“I’d rather take the advisory part and use the client’s dev team whenever possible.““I’d rather use their team than mine.””We don’t even do scope of work.““It’s not about the hours. It’s about the outcomes.”“To guide the engineers, I write paragraphs on how the client should feel at every demo and what the qualitative goal should be.““My goal is always to get smaller, not bigger.”James’ Links Website: https://www.cofebe.com/ Courses: https://courses.cofebe.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jdubyou/ Substack: https://jdubyou.substack.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Guest BioMichael Zipursky – Michael has consulted for organizations and advised leaders throughout North America, Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and the Middle East in over 30 industries, from service providers to billion-dollar multi-national corporations, including Panasonic, Dow Jones, Financial Times, Royal Bank and many others. Michael is an in-demand speaker and gives keynotes and workshops for the Certified Management Consultants Association, Canadian Internet Marketing Conference, Social Media Camp, and others. Michael’s work has appeared in MarketingProfs, Huffington Post, Financial Times, FOX Business, Maclean's, HR Executive, Business Edge, Marketing Magazine, and in several other media and publications. He is the author of 5 books, including:  Elite Consulting Mind Consulting Success® ACT NOW Follow Michael on Twitter @MichaelZipursky and LinkedIn Michael Zipursky or learn more at his website: ConsultingSuccess.comAnd here's the fees guide that Michael mentioned on the show: What Consultants Really Charge In 2023 ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Pricing legend Ron Baker joined me again (for a record-setting fourth appearance!) on Ditching Hourly to talk about the nuances of the subscription model for service business.Talking PointsSubscription pricing is becoming increasingly prevalent, with the subscription economy projected to reach $1.5 trillion by 2025.Pricing tiers can be implemented based on the range of services offered, providing flexibility for customers.Providing outcomes and guiding transformations creates a better customer experience.Non-rival assets, such as knowledge and ideas, can be leveraged through subscriptions, allowing professionals to serve more clients simultaneously.Wasting customers' time is a major downfall in many professional firms, and subscriptions can help mitigate this by fostering consistent and meaningful client interactions.Subscription is a straightforward pricing model that offers a set price for a defined range of services or products.There is a potential shift towards performance-based payment models, where sellers are paid based on results rather than promises.Quotable Quotes“The more services we pile on brick by brick, we add more value.”“If you're going to the market with an uncommon offering, you're commanding uncommon prices.”“You are building lifetime annuities that are worth more than it costs you to acquire them.”“A business model explains where revenue will be earned when services are provided free of charge.”“I do think it's a way station. I think we'll move to a world where we're actually paid for performance and not promises.”“We're too busy selling services brick by brick by brick by brick. And that's not where our value is.”Ron’s Links Twitter: https://twitter.com/ronaldbaker LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronbaker1/ The Soul of Enterprise: https://www.thesoulofenterprise.com/ Times-up Club: https://timesupclub.com/ Verasage: https://www.verasage.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

180Sites.com founder Ryan Golgosky joined me on Ditching Hourly to explain in detail how his web design company manages to add and service more than 30 new clients per month!Ryan’s Links:180sites.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Cross-post from The Business of Authority:Seth Godin joins us again, this time to answer the core question in his brand-new book “The Song of Significance”: What does it take to do work that matters?Talking PointsWhy right now is the best time ever to make a significant contribution to the change you want to see in your world.The importance of focusing on the smallest viable audience to accomplish significant work.How to transform your work into your art (hint: it includes the story you tell yourself about where you’re going).Why “soft skills” need to be considered as “real skills”—and why they are often far more valuable than skills that can be easily measured.What to tell yourself to push past imposter syndrome.Quotable Quotes“It's way more likely that adroit, committed, passionate, smart people are going to realize they have more tools than anyone on Earth ever had before.”—SG“What I'm trying to help undo is industrial brainwashing and remind people that significance comes from making a change in the world.”—SG “I've done more than 200 projects in my career. I've never missed a budget, and I have never missed a deadline. And the reason is that when I run outta time, or I run outta money, I'm done.”—SG“The key to significant work, particularly for the soloist you're talking about, is understanding the power of the smallest viable audience. The goal cannot be the biggest possible audience, ‘cuz that will water down your work and wreck it.”—SG“Part of my contribution is helping people tell themselves a story so they can transform parts of their day from work to art.”—SG“Real skills are honesty, generosity, leadership, connection, charisma, creativity, a sense of humor.”—SG “We have filled our lives with dangerous, ineffective proxies. Things we measure that look like they're gonna give us a hint as to what we're gonna get, but they don't.”—SG“People say, how do I get rid of imposter syndrome? And I say you can't. And that's a good thing because feeling like an imposter is a symptom that A, you're not a sociopath, and B, you're actually doing something difficult. Something important, something that might not work, something you can't prove because you're leading.”—SGLinks The Song of Significance The Carbon Almanac ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Denis Čahuk (aka “Coach Denis”) joined me on Ditching Hourly to share his experiences as an engineering team coach in the tech industry. He discusses his coaching approach of on-the-job training, or just-in-time training, and his focus on helping tech leaders improve modularity and productivity. He also shares insights on attracting leads, ideal buyers, expensive problems, and improving ROI. Additionally, he discusses his strict KPIs, pricing model, cancellation of sprints, use of JIRA, and minimal rituals for successful teams. 05:50 - “My ideal buyer is a tech lead, an engineering manager, some kind of VP, or a tech technical leader in engineering that has direct reports who are individual contributors.” 17:51 - “It is really easy to avoid Friday releases if you plan not to do them.” 22:22 - “I wrote a script that mimicked doing exactly what the dev did, but it took them two hours, and my script runs it in 40 seconds.” 33:29 - “They would waste 30 minutes every day just checking, ‘Wait, do you mean the thing thing or the other thing thing?’” 36:35 - “But what we are measuring with that last subjective metric is essential. And if the team did well this sprint, did they celebrate?” 47:31 - “I encourage them to cancel the sprint once the team is no longer following the goal.” Related links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deniscahuk/ https://craftingtechteams.substack.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Longtime friend-of-the-show and “three-peat” guest Geraldine Carter returns to go deep on the trials, tribulations, and benefits of niching down on a target market.Talking Points Going all in and telling everyone where you’re headed is key to getting traction If starting from scratch, think about what gets you excited and what kind of work you enjoy doing Don’t be afraid to be transparent with existing clients when transitioning to a new niche Managing cash flow is crucial during the transition period Not getting traction feels uncomfortable but should be serially solved, while not fitting into a niche is a feeling of discomfort that doesn’t go away Niching down has many advantages, including having your own set of people and having more control over your calendar ACFA can sell certain kinds of financial advisory products and services, but it’s more common for certified financial planners and financial advisors Quotable Quotes 04:27 “They know down deep inside where they wanna be, but they just haven’t given themselves time and space or permission to let that idea surface as a possible business model.” 21:50 “Once you dive into your niche, you realize just how much there is to learn.” 24:01 “It’s almost like a process of elimination where they need to know what wrong feels like in order to know what Right feels like.” 26:32 “Who do you like working with? What gets you excited? What are the things that you think about when you can’t help thinking about them?” 31:49 “It’s not the curfuffle that you imagine it’s going to be in your mind.” 35:19 “There are a lot of pieces, there are a lot of moving parts, and it includes you having a good product, you talking about that product, but also not just talking, but speaking compellingly about the product.” 41:15 “CPAs do have it easy in a way, and it’s fair that they are in a profession that is in some ways legally required to purchase the service of.” ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Dr. JJ Peterson, head of StoryBrand, joined me on Ditching Hourly to explain why he says, “You can't build a business on hourly billing.” JJ emphasizes the importance of value pricing and project-based billing for delivering results and customer satisfaction. He offers advice on storytelling and differentiation, finding your target audience, and building an email list for lead nurturing.Talking Points Building value-add strategies is crucial to satisfying your customers Professional pricing is focused on value for each project, not solely billable hours Value pricing involves reverse engineering and scoping based on different budgets Productized services can help predict income and make services profitable over time Storytelling is a powerful tool for making sense of information and engaging customers Mailing lists and podcasts can increase awareness and trust Find platforms where your target audience hangs out and offer value before selling Quotable Quotes 07:16 “Showing clients what kind of return they're going to get is a huge way to position yourself as value in the field.” 22:00 “Story takes a bunch of information that's out there and puts it all in a form that makes sense to somebody.” 29:00 “It's not about you, it's about what your skills and experience do to solve their problem.” 35:28 “Clarify your message first. Figure out what your messaging is gonna be before you do spend money on anything, creating anything else.” 37:33 “You wanna be on those stages. Then the second part about that is once you figure out where you wanna be, you wanna go into those places, and you wanna add a ton of value, don't wanna actually go in and sell.” 39:25 “Building your audience with free stuff and then charge quote unquote for the next level, which is to get your email address.” 47:07 “What you bring to businesses and the problems that you solve and the value that you bring is huge. So don't sell yourself short.” J.J.'s BioDr. J.J. Peterson has used the StoryBrand Framework to help thousands of organizations clarify their message in order to grow their business. He teaches leaders how to leverage the power of story in marketing and messaging to get results through his Marketing Made Simple Podcast. J.J. holds a Ph.D. in Communication and has spent the last 20 years practicing and teaching communication theory. He has studied C.S. Lewis in Oxford, debated theology with filmmakers at the Sundance Film Festival, directed a documentary, served in marketing and PR for two multinational non-profit organizations, is currently an adjunct professor at the Owen School of Business at Vanderbilt University, and has spoken to thousands of people about creating a clear message. As the Head of StoryBrand, J.J. travels around the world facilitating StoryBrand workshops and keynotes, helping people grow their businesses.J.J.'s Links https://storybrand.com/brandscript https://marketingmadesimple.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Tech trainer and coach Denis Čahuk joined me on Ditching Hourly to explain how he doubled his income by selling his value instead of selling his CV.Denis’ links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deniscahuk/ https://craftingtechteams.substack.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@technologistpodcast Additional notes from https://www.podcastshownotes.ai/Key Points Productized services are key in creating an offer for clients rather than just presenting a list of skills. The process of discovering an offer's outcome and connecting it with the needs of the client is crucial for productized services. Embracing the value-based pricing approach helps clients see the benefits of paying for expertise rather than just services. Self-publishing on Gum Road can attract tech leads, engineers, freelancers, and individuals in tech looking for a career. Focus on the things that bring value and decide what not to do on a project Overcoming self-inflicted limitations: Dennis holds tactical sessions to help teams break free from their own limitations and company culture. Finding what's valuable and doing nothing else: eliminating waste is more important than improving current processes. Best Quotes 22:20 "That was super easy cuz by that point, I made like nine YouTube videos, which were about 30 hours of conversations." 23:28 "It does seem to highlight those aspects of coding that make things easier to change and cheaper to maintain into the actual workflow." 24:59 "Okay, this isn't about you, the developer. This is about your team and what your team might be going through." 36:02 "It's like, okay, "how can we get fulfillment?" How can we get that kick-ass "hell yeah!" feeling for developers without forcing them to go vegan and do yoga." 39:11 "And then rather than telling you, I also show you." 43:16 "Just talk to the customer. Find out what's valuable and then do nothing else." 49:32 "The overall message is "think bigger" and don't get hung up on wanting to grind on the disengagement of the employees." ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Our resident crypto expert and longtime friend of the show, Luke Willis, joined me on Ditching Hourly to explore the psychology and mechanics of inflation.Links mentioned in the episodeLuke’s Websites: https://lukewillis.com/ https://thekoinpress.com/ Milton Friedman Speaks: Money and Inflationhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_nGEj8wIP0 ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

James Turner, partner at SNAP Copy, joined me on Ditching Hourly to explain the nuances and benefits of selling copywriting services by the credit, not by the hour or the word. About JamesJames E. Turner is a marketing strategist and conversion copywriter. He’s a partner at SNAP Copy, offering conversion-optimized copy on demand using a unique, credit-based system. Through his personal consultancy, Turner Creative, he works with founders of indie B2B SMBs to better position their value, understand their audience, and optimize their messaging & marketing. The best way to get in touch with James is to sign up for his short, off-beat daily emails about creativity, productivity, business ownership, and giving yourself a break at One Creative Moment.One Creative Moment - https://turnercreative.ck.page/one-creative-moment-signupTurner Creative - https://turnercreative.caSNAP Copy - https://snapcopy.coLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/turnercreative/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Nick Loper of Side Hustle Nation joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about how he grew his mailing list and podcast audiences to 100k+ each and how he got started making money without offering high-ticket services.  Side Hustle Nation  The Side Hustle Show Custom Playlist  http://hustle.show https://twitter.com/nloper https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickloper/ (Additional show notes generated by Podium.page)Episode Keywords:Podcast Sponsorships, Monetizing Content, Content-First Businesses, Nick Loper, Side Hustle Show, Thought Leadership, Listener Pyramid, Email List, Mailing List, Multiple Income Streams, Online Content Empire, Freelancing, Consulting, Customized Playlist, Podcast Audience, Podcast Ad Sales, Sponsored Links, Evergreen Content, Facebook Groups, Keyword-Rich ContentEpisode Summary:In this episode, I explore podcast sponsorships and monetizing content-first businesses with guest Nick Loper, host of the Side Hustle Show. We discuss the importance of differentiating oneself from competitors and how publishing thought leadership can attract better clients. We delve into the challenges and potential benefits of monetizing a podcast through sponsorships and the significance of a captivating title. I also share my experiences in finding sponsors and growing my podcast audience. We also discuss the concept of climbing the listener pyramid, the importance of creating compelling content to attract and retain an audience, and the value of building an email list. I share my experience on the importance of mailing lists, the frequency of sending out newsletters and incorporating sponsored links as an additional revenue stream. We examine the numerous small income streams that can be generated through content-first businesses and strategies for building multiple income streams. Finally, we explore the benefits of a curated, customized playlist for podcast listeners and how it can help grow freelancing, consulting, and productized service businesses. By answering a few short questions, listeners can receive a selection of relevant episodes tailored to their interests and needs, ensuring they get the most out of their listening experience.Chapters:(0:00:00) - Monetizing a Podcast and Mailing List(0:10:05) - The Listener Pyramid(0:16:21) - Building an Online Content Empire(0:22:38) - Strategies for Building Multiple Income Streams(0:34:40) - Growing Freelancing and Consulting Businesses ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Canyon Trail founder Floyd May joined me on Ditching Hourly to describe his “shares” pricing model for software development.Floyd’s Links: https://canyon-trail.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/floyd-may/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Longtime software developer Tim Burris joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about his transition from annual salary to hourly billing to fixed pricing and the positive effects the transition had on his day-to-day. Pretty good AI summary:In this episode, I had a fascinating conversation with Tim Burriss about his journey from being a software developer to running a product development department and eventually switching to custom software development with a focus on fixed pricing and value pricing. We discussed his unique approach to finding clients, particularly through Upwork, and how focusing on delivering outcomes rather than tech jargon has resulted in successful projects and satisfied clients. We also explored the transition from working part-time to going solo as a developer, using platforms like Upwork to find the right clients and maintain a steady income. Tim shared his experience with coaching retainers and mentoring junior developers as alternative sources of income during this transition. Throughout the conversation, we touched on the importance of trust in client relationships, the advantages of working on a fixed-price basis, and the art of determining the value of a project. We also discussed the importance of managing client expectations and scope while working on fixed-price projects and how focusing on delivering outcomes can minimize the impact of scope creep. Overall, this episode provides valuable insights and practical advice for anyone looking to move away from hourly billing and embrace a more outcome-focused approach to their work. So if you're ready to ditch hourly and build trust-based working relationships with your clients, this episode is a must-listen!Chapters:(0:00:00) - Moving Away From Hourly Billing(0:13:27) - Going Solo With Freelance Development(0:18:29) - Outcome-Based Projects(0:25:18) - Trust-Based Working Relationships(0:33:39) - Software Development Pricing(0:40:51) - Managing Risk on ProjectsTim's bio:Tim has been developing software since the late 90's. After a decade of Department of Defense Research & Development followed by a decade split between non-profit and manufacturing, he set out on his own to provide custom software at a 100% guaranteed fixed price. While his target audience ranges from those who need an Excel monolith replaced with a custom web solution to pulling information from physical sensors for a total shop floor overview, his specialty is simply helping people without all the tech jargon.Tim's links: https://chalklogic.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@TimBurris https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-burris ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Steve Folland, creator of the Being Freelance podcast and Doing it for the Kids podcast, joined me on Ditching Hourly to chat about his journey into freelancing, organic business growth, and tips for getting into the business mindset. Chapters:(0:00:00) - The Freelance Journey of Steve Folland(0:05:00) - Organic Growth of a Freelance Business(0:15:52) - Freelancing for Beginners(0:20:26) - Getting Into the Business MindsetSteve's Links: https://www.beingfreelance.com/ https://twitter.com/beingfreelance https://www.instagram.com/beingfreelance/ https://www.youtube.com/stevefolland https://www.doingitforthekids.net/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Angular expert Alain Chautard joined me on Ditching Hourly to share the novel ways he escaped the trap of trading time for money by packaging and pricing his platform expertise.Alain's BioAlain is a Google Developer Expert in Web Technologies, Angular, and Google Maps. His daily mission is to help development teams adopt Angular and build at scale with the framework. He has taught front-end development on all six continents. A world traveler and photographer, Alain is also an international conference speaker, and a published author of several video courses.Alain's Links Website: https://www.angulartraining.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/achautard/ Daily Newsletter: https://www.angulartraining.com/daily-newsletter/ Certification program: https://www.angulartraining.com/angular-certification.html ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Ex-Googler Kartick Vaddadi joined me on Ditching Hourly to brainstorm which of his offerings might be most compelling and to find ways to increase the number of leads flowing into his business.Kartick’s Links Website: https://kartick.org YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ConsultingCTO ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

This week I am joined by Ed Gandia. Ed is the co-author of The Wealthy Freelancer, the host of the High-Income Business Writing podcast, and a coach to ambitious writers and copywriters who want to earn more in less time doing work they love for better clients.As you can probably tell from this bio, Ed and I are very much kindred spirits, so this episode is a bit different than most. Instead of me interviewing Ed like a normal guest appearance, we decided to just have a chat where we compared notes on what were see working in our respective spaces. There was a lot of overlap but also some interesting differences. Ed will also be posting our recording on his podcast, so if you're subscribed to both, you don't need to listen twice :)Ed's Links: https://b2blauncher.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Legal operations advisor and law professor Mitch Kowalski joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about innovation in the legal profession, including alternatives to hourly billing.Talking Points The history of hourly billing in the legal profession Transparency in pricing (and why hourly billing isn't transparent at all) The perverse incentives of hourly billing Why billing hourly short changes you if you are good at what you do The importance of breaking a big project into small chunks Why lawyers remain in the “dark ages,” technologically speaking The mental health effects of hourly billing ”Working toward the price” Price as an initial design constraint Reverse engineering your costs to support your desired pricing Mitch’s Links Website: https://kowalski.ca Twitter: https://twitter.com/MEKowalski LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchkowalski ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Sew Heidi is a business coach and educator who helps freelance fashion designers build better businesses. She joined me on Ditching Hourly to compare notes on the similarities and differences between freelancing in fashion vs. freelancing in software. Spoiler alert: There was a lot more in common than you might expect.Episode SummaryIn this episode, we discuss the journey of fashion freelancing, the business of fashion design, the complexities of product development, the transition to permanent freelancing, and the business-building principles for freelancing. Our guest Heidi shares her success story of becoming a fashion freelancer in 2009 and building a six-figure income in just 30-40 hours a week. We discuss the roles and processes involved in the fashion industry, from fashion design to pattern-making and textile design. We also cover the importance of niche-down and positioning for business success and the importance of cash flow and finance. This episode is full of valuable insight for anyone looking to become a successful freelancer of any type.Heidi’s BioAfter running a brand I grew to hate and working 60+ hours in a toxic fashion job, I almost burnt out of the fashion industry. But then I found freelancing. I reached $100k+ and was living my dream, working when I wanted, traveling, and I never worried about paying the bills.I worked for myself, earned steady income, and loved my clients. #winwinwinSince then, I’ve taught 1000s of fashion freelancers to do the same through my free content, my podcast, and my program, Freelance Accelerator: from Surviving to Thriving (FAST).Heidi’s Links https://successfulfashiondesigner.com/  https://successfulfashiondesigner.com/fast/  (Heidi’s Freelance Accelerator program) https://successfulfashiondesigner.com/podcast/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Jason Lengstorf joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about the novel way he's using his generalist web skills to create value, have fun, and make a living.Jason's Bio:Jason Lengstorf is the host of Learn With Jason, a web generalist and the undefeated smashburger champ. A creative technologist and educator, Jason helps tech companies connect with developer communities through better devrel strategy and creative media production. He advocates for continued learning through collaboration and play as the fastest path to growth, and models this on weekly livestreams where he pair programs with experts from around the community to learn something new in 90 minutes. He’s trying his very best to follow his own advice. When this whole internet thing goes out of style, he'll probably open a food truck in his home city of Portland, Oregon.Jason's Links: https://www.jason.af/links https://www.learnwithjason.dev/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Home studio architect and author Junaid Ahmed joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about why it's important to look and sound your best on camera, how to level up your home studio without spending a lot of time or money, and the novel approach he took to writing and publishing his new book, Mastering iPhone Video Production.Junaid's Bio:Junaid Ahmed is a Home Studio Architect, podcast host, and filmmaker with over three decades of experience. He specializes in creating optimized home studios for confident content creation and high-quality video production. As a seasoned professional, Junaid has a wealth of knowledge and expertise in this field and shares it through his podcast, "Hacks and Hobbies."Junaid's Links:Book Link: https://superjunaid.com/iphonevideo/5-Day Challenge Link: https://homestudiomastery.com/5DayChallenge/Home Studios: https://homestudiomastery.comBlog/Personal: https://superjunaid.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Jeff Doolittle is a software architect, transformational leader, and se-radio.net host who’s on a mission to make good software professionals great.Jeff joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about his journey from a web dev working for free pizza to an in-demand software architect.Along the way, we talked about the importance of strategy, systems thinking as applied to software, and finding a balance between “wonk” and “geek” in order to deliver real business value.Related Links Jeff's website Jeff's LinkedIn Jeff's Twitter Jeff's Github Exploring Requirements: Quality Before Design On the Criteria To Be Used in Decomposing Systems into Modules iDesign.net Lean Software Systems Engineering for Developers Thinking in Systems: A Primer ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

In-demand Python teacher Reuven Lerner joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about building a software training business in 2023.Reuven's links:- https://lerner.co.il, Reuven's main site- https://BetterDevelopersWeekly.com/, Reuven's Python + software engineering list- https://TrainerWeekly.com, Reuven's newsletter about training- And Reuven frequently posts to Twitter and LinkedIn if people want tofollow him there ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Landscape architect Brandon Reed joined me on Ditching Hourly to discuss how ditching hourly billing, offering fixed price options, and niching down transformed his firm. Brandon's Links: Website LinkedIn Instagram ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

CPA Erica Goode joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about how coaches and consultants should think about inflation, recession, cash flow, and taxes.Erica's Bio:Erica Goode, CPA owns an accounting firm serving coaches and consultants through accounting and CFO services.Erica's Newsletter: https://www.ericagoode.com/newsletter-signupErica's Podcast:  Coaches, Consultants, and Money (available everywhere, but here's the iTunes link)NOTE: Episodes 3 - 7 are "Business Money 101" and a great place to start. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Mitch Herrema of Bulb Digital joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about his experience selling high-ticket productized services.Mitch's links:  Website Twitter ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Erin Balsa of Haus of Bold joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about the dramatic success she experienced once switching to my 5-page proposal template.NOTE: The audio on this episode is a little rough, but Erin shared a ton of valuable insights, so I wanted to release it anyway. I've included an auto-generated transcript for this episode if you'd prefer to read it.  Erin's Links: Haus of Bold The Notorious Thought Leader Podcast Erin on LinkedIn ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Vikram Shetty of 73bit.com joined for a coaching call on Ditching Hourly to help clarify the difference between the end user, target market, and ideal buyer for his sustainability benchmarking SaaS product. Vikram's links: https://73bit.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/vikramshettyc/ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sustainability-scores/id1575726960 ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Proprietor of Strohmeyer Law, John Strohmeyer, joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about why he left a big hourly law firm to start his own practice and how he packages and sells fixed-fee legal services to avoid trading time for money.  John's bio:John Strohmeyer is the proprietor of Strohmeyer Law PLLC in Houston, where he guides individuals through the maze of estate planning, tax, and probate law to help them leave no unfinished business.John is board certified in both Tax Law and Estate Planning and Probate Law by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization. John is a Fellow of the American College of Trust and Estate Counsel (“ACTEC”, the cool-kids club for estate planners).John hosts the Five Star Counsel podcast, which attempts to answer the question, "What would a law firm built by the founders of Disney, Four Seasons, Amazon, and Zappos look like?"Based on his first career working for the Four Seasons Hotels, primarily as the Night Manager of the Austin property, he helps lawyers get better at client service, which helps them satisfy their ethical duties to their clients and convey their competence to their clients.Here is the link to John and Jonathan talking on Five Star Counsel:https://strohmeyerlaw.libsyn.com/fsc-rewind-ditching-the-billable-hour-w-jonathan-starkWhen he’s not practicing law, he spends his time with his wife Emily and their rescued mutts Griswold, Molly, and Billy; running marathons (45 as of August 15, 2022); and homebrewing beer. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The CPA Savior, Geraldine Carter, joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about her journey from custom coaching to productized services and how it opened up a path to seven figures for her solo business. About GeraldineGeraldine Carter is a business coach for overworked CPAs who need help getting off the tax hamster wheel. Her clients routinely generate $250K of new annual recurring revenue within the first few months of working together, while spending less time at the office. Her podcast, Business Strategy for CPAs has more than 100,000 downloads and is ranked in the top ten podcast for CPAs, by Apple Podcasts. Geraldine holds a BS in Engineering from Cornell University and is the co-founder and CFO of a company where her cashflow forecasting models resulted in millions of dollars for climate change efforts. In her free time, she can be found mountain biking forested trails or running after her two small children in her hometown of Ketchum, ID.Related links https://www.linkedin.com/in/geraldine-carter/ gc@geraldinecarter.com businessstrategyforcpas.com geraldinecarter.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

QA Consultant Preshant Bellad joined me on Ditching Hourly to discuss value pricing for monthly QA services. Jonathan, We perform ongoing QA activities like testing, creating automated tests, breaking the app, etcWe do the above for requirements that are planned per 2 weeks iteration/sprintFor this client, I have been billing an average of 200 hours per month based on the features to testSome of the feature testing does get completed in the same month, and few are carried over to the next monthI cannot estimate what features my team would test in the coming month hence I am not able to derive a success metricCan you pls suggest how to calculate the success metric for this situation so that I can move to value-based pricing month on monthly basis?PreshantPreshant's Links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/prashant-bellad/ https://pristineprotech.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Founder of Mimiran, Reuben Swartz, joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about the unique client relationship management needs of solo consultants and shared the novel approaches he took when building his “anti-CRM”. Reuben’s LinkedIn Mimiran CRM Jonathan on Reuben’s Podcast ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Serverless expert Paul Swail joined me on Ditching Hourly to share how he uses paid diagnostic engagements to help land large projects without the pressure of conducting a single sales interview. Paul's Links: https://serverlessfirst.com/ https://twitter.com/paulswail ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Dr. Jason Troyer joined me on Ditching Hourly to share the details of his journey from tenured academic to authority entrepreneur. Jason’s Links: https://www.jasontroyer.com/ https://www.griefplan.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Dre Beltrami returns to Ditching Hourly to drop her patented iconoclastic worldviews. This time around we talk about Google+, Pinterest, search vs feed, stealing longtail keywords, and for the love of god, just shutting up and listening. Dre's links:thesolopreneursociety.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Email automation guru Jason Resnick joined me on Ditching Hourly to geek out about serving subscribers more effectively with less effort.We ended up chatting for 90+ minutes, and Jason gave a master class on leveraging basic email automation techniques to create outsized results for your audience and your business.If you have a mailing list, this is a must-listen episode. If you don’t, it’s time to start :-)Jason's links: Jason Resnick NurtureKit Double Opt-in ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Geogram President Peter Mobley reached out to ask if he could come on Ditching Hourly to interview me, and of course, I said yes. I'm not sure that's what happened but it was a unique conversation :-)Peter's links:  Geogram hello@geogram.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Vocal coach and acapella group leader Adrian Goldner joined me on Ditching Hourly to brainstorm ways to package and price his expertise in more profitable ways. Unfortunately, I forgot to click the record button so I'll have to recap our conversation on my own. Whomp whomp :-(Anyway...Here's Adrian's background:- He's a vocal coach, certified in something called the CVT method- He runs an acapella choir group and makes a modest monthly income from membership dues and gig fee percentages- He has a handful or private vocal students who are not pros and mostly just sing for fun- He works a few hours per week teaching vocal lessons to students in a private university- He prefers working with pros than with beginners, so the university gig and the lessons for hobbyists are not particularly satisfyingOne of Adrian's biggest questions was how to take this patchwork of experiences and increase his fees through value pricing. He said that most buyer expectations for something like private vocal lessons is that the student would pay a fixed amount per lesson, and that the amount would be fairly low. He couldn't imagine justifying even doubling his lesson fees, never mind 10x-ing them.We talked about a few different business models that might make sense for someone like him. He didn't want to scale by hiring employees or starting a school or anything like that. He wanted to stay solo, and remain fairly hands on with his clients.So, the business model that felt like the best fit was the Authority Model. In general, the Authority Model has an MVP product ladder that looks something like this: - $50000+ Project (value priced custom engagement)- $5000 Roadmap (diagnostic with recommendations and execution plan)- $500 Call (one-off short paid consultation)The trick to the Authority Model is that you have to become the “go-to” person for solving an expensive problem for a very specific niche market, who ideally has a high degree of buying power. Adrian couldn't really get his head around the idea of value pricing a 1-on-1 vocal project, so the example I used to illustrate was this:Sting (former lead signer of the Police) can no longer hit the high notes in their smash hit Roxanne. So, he has to perform the song a couple of whole steps lower than the original. It's noticeable and it sounds weird. Kinda like a bad cover band. I betcha this drives Sting nuts.So...How much do you think Sting would pay to be able to go back to singing Roxanne in the original key?$50,000? $100,000?Maybe, maybe not... but it's a reasonable hypothesis.If Adrian wanted to pursue this particular angle, his positioning would look something like:“I am a vocal reconditioning coach who helps aging rock stars hit the high notes like they were 20 again.”With a positioning statement like this, it would be easy to make a list of ideal clients, and it would be easy to justify five-figure fees.The hard part would be creating a reputation for reliably delivering the kind of results that they crave. _ASIDE: Note that creating a reputation for delivering results is a _very different type of problem_ than trying to convince a singer in a local bar band to pay you $50,000 to increase their range by a fourth. A small increase in range simply isn't worth that much to a singer in a local bar band. So if you can't understand how value pricing could unlock huge profits for you, it might be because you're not imagining big enough clients._At this point it occurred to me that there probably are people who are already well positioned as "vocal coach to the stars" so I started thinking about what would make Adrian different. The thing that jumped out at me immediately was his experience with vocal groups, not just individual singers.This more focused target market immediately created a Rolodex moment for me with groups like Pentatonyx and BTS and Blackpink.Maybe Adrian could even combine the "hit the high notes like you're 20 again" with "voice training for vocal groups" and start out with a laser focus like:“I am a vocal reconditioning coach who helps old school boy/girl bands hit the high notes like they were 20 again. Unlike other vocal coaches, I specialize in the unique challenges of integrating multiple voices in harmony.”Adrian lit up a bit at this proposition because he immediately felt uniquely qualified to excel at this very specific intersection of niche market and specialized expertise.Is it a viable market position?I don't know, but there are ways to find out.As homework, I suggested that he research the number of groups who would fall into this niche, find out where they hang out to talk shop or who they listen to for advice, and to look for any other vocal coaches who serve the high end of the market to study what they're doing and how he (Adrian) would be considered meaningfully different by his ideal buyers.He said he would try that and report back.Keep your fingers crossed and stay tuned! I'll let you know if I get an update. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Michael’s Links I Regret My $46k Website Redesign Tiny Pilot Michael’s Twitter ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Joel Clermont joined me on Ditching Hourly to detail his multi-year transition from "hourly billing" agency owner to "value pricing" soloist. Joel's LinksMasteringLaravel.io ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

EPISODE SUMMARYOverdelivering—giving your clients and buyers more than they expected or contracted for—is a seemingly thoughtful and helpful practice that is anything but.EPISODE NOTESOur tendency (especially in proposal situations) to acquiesce to client requests—and how to re-direct that for the good of all.The power and status dynamics surrounding consultants serving clients and what happens if we start treating clients as higher status.How overdelivering can seep into your firm’s practices and where to nip it in the bud.Developing a healthy mindset around service delivery, providing value and decoupling your fees from effort.Quotables“Your clients are a choice, just like your boss is a choice, but people often forget that walking away is one of the options.”—JS“You could say: ‘Listen, if we take out this step, I can't guarantee the transformation, and therefore I can't do that for you.’”—RM“The way to provide value to your clients is not to be obedient—it's to deliver results.”—JS“The proposal is the dress rehearsal for the engagement.”—RM“If you let prospective clients push you around in the sales process, it should come as no surprise when they push you around during the project.”—JS“The more that you consider yourself low status relative to clients, the worse you're going to feel about it.”—RM “There's so much ‘the customer's always right’ psychology. "Wouldn't it be better to give them more than less?" No, it really wouldn't.”—JS“This is about leveraging what you have—not playing status games that have you overdelivering and creating relationships that don't work for you.”—RMLinksTara McMullin's Instagram piece on over-delivering   ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

This episode is an anonymized question that I answered in one of my Ditcherville LIVE Q&A sessions inside of my group coaching community.  ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

This episode is an anonymized question that I answered in one of my Ditcherville LIVE Q&A sessions inside of my group coaching community.  ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

This episode is an anonymized question that I answered in one of my Ditcherville LIVE Q&A sessions inside of my group coaching community.  ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Founder of 7-Second Websites, Kevin Freidberg joined me on Ditching Hourly to describe how he has adapted The Why Conversation to better suit his personality and land nearly 100% of his prospects.  Kevin's Website Kevin's LinkedIn ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Web3 Consultant Luke Willis joined me on Ditching Hourly to brainstorm ways to position and package his crypto/blockchain/web3 expertise. Luke's Links https://lukewillis.com/ https://thekoinpress.com/ https://twitter.com/lukemwillis ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

UX content writer, Merav Levkowitz joined me on Ditching Hourly to brainstorm ways she could get away from billing hourly for ongoing maintenance and execution work. LinksMerav's Website ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Author, founder, and rebel scum, Alex Hillman returned to Ditching Hourly, this time to talk about paid project discovery engagements. Alex's Links Alex's Twitter Alex's email: alex@tiny.mba The Tiny MBA by Alex Hillman ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Let’s say you wanted to start a daily mailing list… How would you come up with enough stuff to write about? My Solar System Content Model is the answer. Related articles Solar System Content Model Finding Your Sun ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The core strategy behind my "punk" marketing approach. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Other than hourly billing, this is the mindset shift that has had the biggest impact on my business.  ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

This time on Ditching Hourly I answer a question from Kenneth Taylor about how to build a solo authority business that essentially has no competition. Related links:  Positioning Definition XY Position Statement More articles on positioning The Business of Authority ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

“JavaScript-in-FileMaker” expert Jeremy Brown joined me on Ditching Hourly to brainstorm which business models might make the most sense for his highly specialized area of expertise. Links We Mentioned:  integratingmagic.io jsinfm.com jonathanstark.com/fm/filemaker-to-php-translation-table ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The “Expertise Expert” himself, David C. Baker joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about the 5 things that happen right after you specialize.About David C. Baker“The Leading Authority on Positioning, Reinventing, and Selling Firms in the Creative and Digital Space.”David C. Baker is the author of five books, three of which focus on the central elements of the business of expertise: positioning, financial management, and leadership. David speaks regularly on more than 70 topics relevant to entrepreneurial expertise, from 20 executives to 5,000 live on TV, all over the world, and has worked with 900+ firms through his Total Business Review process.David's Links David's Website David's book: The Business of Expertise David's podcast (with Blair Enns) ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

My dear old friend Rick “Fink” Finkelstein joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about he got booked solid using fixed fees, specialization, and niching.  Related Links Fink's website Mike Fortin Liliac Guitar Player Magazine Gittler Guitar ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Longtime web developer and freshly minted trading card creator Colyn Brown joined me on Ditching Hourly to brainstorm about how to capitalize on early interest in his bluegrass trading cards. Related LinksBluegrass Trading Co. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Long-time lawyer, second-time guest, and first-time SaaS co-founder Digby Leigh joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about alternative fee arrangements making inroads in the legal industry.Talking Points Pricing trends in the legal industry The three most common non-hourly pricing models for law firms The benefits of "agreed upon" up-front fixed fee pricing What types of engagements aren't a good fit for fixed fee pricing What to expect when clients know they can talk to you for free instead of “on the clock” The internal attitude you need to beat back when you first ditch hourly billing The importance of being helpful The indignity of having to justify how you spend your time The magic of The Why Conversation The benefits of offering pricing options Related Links Digby’s Firm, Leigh & Co Frank Fee™ Digby’s SaaS, AltFee Goliath ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Equity-Driven Design Strategist Lucy Flores joined me on Ditching Hourly to brainstorm her positioning. Talking Points The difference between a specialization and a niche The difference between a mission statement and a positioning statement Why positioning is especially important for soloists How to know when your positioning is specific enough Related LinksLucy's website ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Is the problem you solve for your clients a “nice-to-have” or mission critical?Author, consultant, and podcast host, Ton Dobbe joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about the three requirements of any expensive problem, and how to reverse engineer these factors into a simple formula you can use to decide what to focus on in your positioning, segmentation, and value proposition.Taking Points The three levers of the value foundation The importance of uncovering the worldview of your ideal buyers (and how to do it) The three sides of The “Broken” Triangle How to set yourself apart from your competitors in a way that they can’t copy Related Links Ton’s book, The Remarkable Effect Ton’s Website Ton’s Podcast Ton’s LinkedIn Ton’s Twitter ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Entrepreneur, consultant, and former hair metal guitarist Paul Klein joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about his Three Pillars of Revenue: consulting, training, and infoproducts. Making the leap to self-employment Selling your first infoproduct Using workshops to build your consulting business Niching down to grow an expertise-based consulting business Scaling up your business by getting bigger clients Increasing fees and accelerating sales by focusing on expensive problems Related Links Thou Shall Prosper by Rabbi Daniel Lapin The E-Myth Revisited: Why Most Small Businesses Don't Work and What to Do About It Paul's LinkedIn Paul's Consulting Website Paul's Coaching Website Paul's SaaS Website Paul's Podcast Bizable TV Yours,—JP.S. If you like Bizable, you can use coupon code DITCHINGHOURLY at checkout to save 40% forever. NOTE: This is NOT an affiliate coupon. I just think Paul's doing great stuff and you might find it useful.  ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Java Developer Alice B. (name withheld by request) joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about what to do when the skills you’ve built over many years become less valuable to clients. The pros and cons of platform specialization The difference between horizontal and platform specialization What to focus on when your technical skills are no longer in demand How to spot a truly expensive problem Why freely sharing your expertise is the right thing to do The three “good, better, best” ways to generate new business Why being specific about who your ideal clients are can dramatically increase your referrals Why thinking about something harder or longer often doesn’t work The importance of having conversations How to learn to what your ideal buyers really want How cold outreach, warm referrals, and organic inbound work together The difference between “hunting” and “gardening” sales models How to know when to double down or cut bait with a given target market How to ask for testimonials from active clients before a project is finished Why your odds of success are probably better if you focus on a type of buyer instead of a particular skill Related Links Building The Perfect Testimonial The Pricing Seminar ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Business appraiser Charlie Stanton joined me on Ditching Hourly to brainstorm how to differentiate what is typically considered a commodity service. Talking Points Pricing risk mitigation instead of cost cutting or value creation Differentiating in a commoditized market Creating productized services for a specific market Partnering with adjacent business that serve the same market Connecting with the target market way before they need you Charlie's Links The listeners can find out more about Charlie at www.StantonValue.com or contact him directly at charlie@stantonvalue.com  ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Outdoor brand identity designer Devin Renaud joined me on Ditching Hourly to brainstorm how to get more leads. Devin's Links:  https://fourestdesign.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/renauddesignco/ https://www.instagram.com/fourestdesign/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Paul Boag, UX consultant, digital transformation expert, and OG podcaster, joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about how helping people for free is good for business.Talking Points The value of jumping on a new platform. How podcasting creates trust. How to create a good podcast. Hunting versus gardening. Expertise by association. Video-first workflow. The benefit of publishing your mistakes instead of editing them out. Why you don’t need to be outgoing to have a podcast. The benefits of daily publishing. The trust difference between writing and speaking. The simplicity of being a helpful human being. Why you should share absolutely everything you know. How tactics change over time. Why you need to adapt for the reality you’re in. What to copy from your heros (spoiler: copy the strategy, not the tactics). Why niching down is a great way to become dominant in a sector. Why it’s critically important to find out where your ideal buyers talk to each other. How to work your way into a niche market. Show your expertise, don’t tell your expertise. Niching around an audience instead of a deliverable. Connect with Paul: Paul's website  Paul's newsletter Paul on Twitter ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Sam Shepler, founder of Testimonial Hero, joined me on Ditching Hourly for a wide ranging discussion about the moving parts of productized services. Links We Mentioned Sam's Twitter Testimonial Hero Haute Stock Range by David Epstein ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Speaker, author, and entrepreneur Ryan Berman joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about using courage as a competitive advantage.Things We Mentioned Ryan’s Website Return On Courage This Book Will Make You Dangerous by Tripp Lanier Icarus Deception by Seth Godin Jonah Berger ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Software engineer, author, and educator Swizec Teller joined me to talk about consulting vs employment in Silicon Valley.Swizec's links: https://swizec.com/ https://twitter.com/swizec https://seniormindset.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

My good friend Philip Morgan interviewed me on The Self-Made Expert Podcast about what's been going on behind the scenes in my business for the past couple years. We chatted about a bunch of things I don't usually get asked about, including:  My transition from surfing a once-in-a-generation tech wave to a very different kind of advisory business My inventory of nasty emails received from my mailing list How I run inexpensive experiments Links: My previous appearance on Philip's podcast Philip's main website ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The wonderful Blair Enns of Win Without Pitching returned to Ditching Hourly to discuss the pros and cons of productized services. Blair is generally against them and I am generally for them. Since we tend to agree on most things business-related, I wanted to have him back on the show to get to the bottom of our disconnect on this particular point. During the course of our hour-long chat, we uncovered lots of nuance and eventually understood both sides of the argument for or against. TL;DR:Whether or not offering productized services is a good move for your business depends on several factors, including:  Whether you're a soloist or a big firm How good you are at sales Your business goals Blair's links: https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/ https://twitter.com/blairenns ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Architect Carl Maxey joined me on Ditching Hourly to brainstorm how to use value pricing in his business.Talking Points: The benefits of niching down Phasing projects to decrease your risk How to control scope creep on a big project What to do when a stakeholder appears late in the game When (and why) to say NO to clients How to know which prospective clients are the best fit The three factors that contribute to very high prices The role of productized services when value pricing The difference between project oversight and project management Carl's email address: carlmaxeyarchitect@pm.me ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Transistor.fm co-founder Justin Jackson joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about leveling up your "business game" by learning to spot bigger waves. Justin's links: https://transistor.fm/ https://megamaker.co/ https://devmarketing.xyz/ https://justinjackson.ca/ https://twitter.com/mijustin ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Design Thinking Consultant Hannah Berson joined me on Ditching Hourly to figure out a way to align the financial incentives on a novel three-party deal. Hannah's links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannah-berson-8b56672/ https://www.saltcollaboratory.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

David Thorp joins me on Ditching Hourly for a positioning discussion to figure out if he's a Filemaker developer or a Swift developer or a business analyst or something else. David's website:https://www.alphacustomapps.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Software architect George Stocker joins me to get clarity on his ideal buyer.  George's site: https://georgestocker.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Musician Mason Bayne joined me for a coaching call to brainstorm where to find the most value in the music business. Mason's website: https://www.masonscottbayne.comValue Pricing Bootcamp:http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Health coach Jihane Farrell joined me to talk about how to price "quality of life" and other intangible and highly subjective client outcomes.Jihane's email address: catbirdwellness@gmail.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Karrie Grinter joins me for a coaching call to figure out how to double her pilates business before she retires. Karrie's website:https://www.northantspilates.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Carl Richards of Behavior Gap joins me to talk about why it makes sense for him to sell his new book for $10,000.Talking Points The paradox of working in public every day The terror of going from 0 to 1 Using permission-less projects to get going The importance of noticing “tailwind” Turning flaws into features Using impostor syndrome as a compass Reacting to negative feedback about pricing How to decide whether to start a podcast Carl’s BioCarl Richards is a Certified Financial Planner™ and creator of the Sketch Guy column, appearing weekly in The New York Times since 2010.Carl has also been featured on Marketplace Money, Oprah.com, and Forbes.com. In addition, Carl has become a frequent keynote speaker at financial planning conferences and visual learning events around the world.Through his simple sketches, Carl makes complex financial concepts easy to understand. His sketches also serve as the foundation for his two books, The One-Page Financial Plan: A Simple Way to Be Smart About Your Money and The Behavior Gap: Simple Ways to Stop Doing Dumb Things with Money (Portfolio/Penguin).His sketches have appeared in a solo show at the Kimball Art Center in Park City, Utah as well as other showings at Parsons School of Design in New York City, The Schulz Museum in Santa Rosa, California, and an exhibit at the Mansion House in London. His commissioned work is on display in businesses and educational institutions across the globe.Find Carl online here: https://behaviorgap.com https://behaviorgap.com/radio/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/thinkingcarl https://twitter.com/behaviorgap ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The Camp Wood Saga - A crash course in microeconomics, positioning, and profitability inspired by folks who sell firewood at the end of their driveway. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Category Error on Wikipedia ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

This week I'm joined by brand strategist and founder of The Solopreneur Society, Dre Beltrami. Dre talks - in no uncertain terms - about BS marketing tactics, the importance of giving a sh*t, and why the word 'authentic' makes her want to puke. If you're sick of people being fake online, check out this episode for a breath of fresh air. Dre might not be your cup of tea, but that's exactly the point. Links: https://thesolopreneursociety.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Productivity coach Carol Williams joins me to talk about how getting more stuff done is like baking a cake.Carol's website: https://eps-time.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

My other podcast: The Business of Authority ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Value Pricing Calculator ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The funny and talented Bob Beverley joins me to brainstorm ways to create more leverage in his psychotherapy practice. Bob's website: The Sharp Club ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

FE International founder and CEO Thomas Smale joins me to talk about what to do before building (or buying) a SaaS.FE International website ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Full stack engineer Kyle Miller explains how he bootstrapped a SaaS and sold it for a life-changing amount of money a few years later. Kyle's Links Website LinkedIn ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Learning consultant Ant Pugh joins me to talk about the difference between niching and specialization. Ant's Links: https://www.antpugh.com/ https://www.wearepropella.com/ The Pricing SeminarThe next session of The Pricing Seminar starts on March 8th, 2021. If you're ready to stop billing and start pricing, head on over to The Pricing Seminar to enroll now: https://thepricingseminar.com/(And look for the little blue bird to find a nice discount) ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Coaching Call with educator Kristina JarenoKristina's Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/kristinario_/Automated Transcript: Jonathan (00:00:00):Hello, and welcome to ditching hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. And today I'm joined by guest Kristina Jareno. Did I say that right?Kristina (00:00:09):Almost... Jareno.Jonathan (00:00:10):My apologies. Um, so Kristina, could you tell folks a little bit about who you are and what you do?Kristina (00:00:17):Sure. Um, hi everyone. I am a mom. I, my daughter is four I'm born and raised in long beach, California. I am starting a homeschool co-op and I am also an intern trainers and entertainer. So I make films and music and I've reached out to John to help me, um, regarding both of these industries and how to play hourly billing to both.Jonathan (00:00:45):Yes. Okay, great. Um, so let's, so you sent an email, thanks for that. And you talked, um, let's focus on the schooling piece first because I think that's, um, that's, uh, I could be wrong, but I feel like that one has more moving parts. So why don't you give folks a little bit of a backstory on how you came to put that together? What, what need you feel like it's addressing or you want it to address?Kristina (00:01:11):Sure. Um, so my daughters for a couple of years ago around when she was two, um, I started having the itch to really quote unquote, get back to my career, um, or just have help with childcare so that I could have some me time as a mom. Um, so I started researching different daycares and preschools in schools, and that journey led me to tour like, you know, over 25 to 30 schools in Los Angeles. And this was like Montessori, organic daycares, Waldorf Reggio, progressive private schools, like elementary on. And I didn't know what I was looking for at the time I was looking for emotional safety. I was looking for, um, I was also looking for parent education and that journey led me to starting my own co-op um, you know, uh, we'll be working with, uh, uh, Ryan associates and PT instructor to kind of help all the parents. Um, and that's kind of how I, I ended up coming to starting it over at the end of this two year journey is really out of necessity just because I couldn't find what I was looking for.Jonathan (00:02:26):Hmm. Okay. So can you drill into those? You use two terms though. I'm not familiar with Bri associate and PDT.Kristina (00:02:35):Um, so arise associate rise stands for resources for infant educators. And I found out about raw resources for infant educators. Um, actually from one of the co-ops that I, um, was touring. And when I found them, my daughter was too young to enroll at the time and I didn't want to wait a whole year to start getting, um, you know, educated as a parent. The reason why I liked them was because did like monthly workshops and it was parent participation. So parents were really, really, really, really involved in given support and guidance and that's what I was craving. And so I asked them if there were any podcasts or resources or books, people to, to look out for, um, just to get started. And they recommended Janet Lansbury as podcasts and resources for infant educators, which I think is one of the, kind of more becoming more mainstream approaches to respectful parenting.Kristina (00:03:30):Um, and then parent effectiveness training is also another approach that some rye associates, um, recommend for after age two, because resources for in financial cares is more for infants and up to age two. So after age two, when they start getting more conversational, they want, uh, collaborative problem solving is more required. And like in a conscious awareness of your, uh, abuse or lack of abuse of, of your authority and power is more required. So PT is really, really great. It stands for parent effectiveness training and it was created by, uh, Thomas Gordon. Who's a psychologist that was nominated for the Nobel peace prize. Right. So, um, those two approaches were like the main things that I sunk my teeth into in addition to self directed education, which I think I saw on one of your videos, you're also a homeschooler, always willing parents. Yup. Cool. You, it,Jonathan (00:04:31):So, okay. So now you, uh, you weren't finding what you were looking for, so you decided to, uh, take a leadership role and put something together. What, and you said it was, uh, a co-op. So can you kind of, that's all a black box to me. So can you kind of describe what that structure means? I mean, I have a vague, vague understanding of what co-op like food market is, but like what, what's the structure, if you could just make it kind of more tangible for me?Kristina (00:05:02):Yeah. Um, well, uh, from what, from what I know from the preschools that I've toured and I've toured a few different co-ops here in LA, um, it's basically parents, uh, it's like a preschool, um, where parents can volunteer in the classroom, um, to be more involved and kind of witnessed what their child is being exposed to from the education standpoint to the people, teaching them to the other families that are involved and their children. Um, so it's basically parents coming together. Um, usually the premise of it is if parents are volunteering, then there's more resources in the classroom. Um, and there, that means that your tuition is going to be, I don't know, cheaper. Um, although I've found that some co some parent participation clubs and preschools, they can, even if they're both high end or depending on what their product is or what, you know, education being the product, the quality of the education or the, um, the environment they're providing, it could be like the same price anyway. So, um, but it's basically parents coming together as a village and, um, collaborating with each other, arranging for childcare, with a lead teacher, like a director and other lead teachers.Jonathan (00:06:30):Okay. Yeah. Okay. That, that clicks with me because, uh, there are homeschool organizations around here that have a similar sort of thing like that. They, yeah. That, you know, it's kind of like, um, volunteer to teach, uh, Oh, you know, how to play violin. Could you teach a violin class, that kind of stuff, you know, for, not for, uh, preschoolers, but, um, so sort of similar sort of, yeah, I sort of get the idea. And then it's a question of, um, I'm kind of stuck on the, I'm kind of stuck at the beginning where you were like, I was looking, you know, this, this small child and I'm looking for some meantime, but now you're going to be with the, with the kid, all the kids anyway, um, is this is really for parents, for parents who don't work or what's, what's the, is it,Kristina (00:07:21):So the structure of what the unicorn is thing that I'm creating? Yeah. I can go straight into it. Um, well, the reason why I'm creating this, this thing, and this is, it's like a preschool club, except that when the child, when any of the children turn age six, they will, they, all they have to do is file a PSA. Um, and then, which is the private private school affidavit. And that's for you to legally become like, uh, uh, an unschooler, I should say, or like a homeschool, or if you want more control, because if you don't have a PSA and you're a homeschooler, then that means that you're going to adhere to the state mandated curriculum, um, through different, through a charter, like I lead or inspire or whatever.Jonathan (00:08:06):I believe that's different from state to state, but that's how it happened.Kristina (00:08:10):Yeah. Sorry in California here. Um, that's how it is. Um, so it's kind of like, um, world schooling or unschooling together type of a thing. And it's really attachment based because my concern as a parent was that I like I was going to enroll my child. And then because I've done a lot of kind of trauma work in therapy on myself and I, that meant that I was like really conscious of attachment theory and attachment styles, even. So I had a concern that my child was going to make all of these attachments to a space, to primary attachment caregivers, which are the other head teachers or the other parents. And then the, and then the friends, and then it's kindergarten time. And then you have to break all of that. And then you have to break all of it each year, because that's kind of how the structure of the school is.Kristina (00:09:01):You don't have like the same teacher each time. Waldorf is a little bit different. Waldorf is like one teacher for like first grade to eighth, I think, um, which is really cool, but I had a concern about that. And then I also had a concern because, um, I didn't want there to, I didn't want to have to deal with the dysfunction that comes with, um, even in a co-op setting where parents have different commitments and different parenting styles and different desires. Like not every parent is gonna, you know, want to look at their stuff. Even if they say they do not, every parent is going to want to study, um, you know, or, or take class with something like resources for admin educators or parent effectiveness training to actually get some in the field skills of how to deal with your child and how to negotiate and how to deal with conflicts and different things.Kristina (00:10:03):So I didn't want to deal with the dysfunction that comes along with me not owning that business and the directors deciding well, I mean, I'm okay with stomaching that because I have a business to run and I'm licensed for this many kids and I have to survive, you know, I have to make a profit with this business. So with these, with these, with this family, I'm willing to bring that in. But then what does that do with my child and myself? Like my child's just going to be a sitting duck because I'm the one I, I don't want to be arrogant or anything, but like, like say I'm a parent. Like, let's just say if I was a parent that was like one of the, or the most anal and neurotic about psychological health and emotional safety, that automatically means that my child is gonna be less prone to certain dysfunctional behaviors than other children. And everyone's on a spectrum. I'm not perfect at all, but I'm saying that it's just different when I'm, when I'm hanging out with, like, let's say other parents from my, from my classes and it's all, there's like a collaboration together. It's like, I have a trust with you that if something comes up, I don't have to worry about what you're going to say to my child, because we're on the same page about the detriments of a, B and C and how to practically handle it.Jonathan (00:11:24):Yeah. So basically you wanted to make sure that anybody who was, um, I guess it's not teachers, it's not, but the, the adults in the room are basically all on the same page. Right. So, so that you all kind of have the same worldview about this educational situation. I don't know what to call it exactly. But you have about how the children would be treated. So, yeah. Okay. So, all right. Well, that makes perfect sense. I mean, regardless of, of where you put yourself on the, you know, if you're like the, the most hands-off person ever, and it's just like you figure it out kid, or, um, or, you know, the other end of that spectrum it, whether the dear listener agrees with either approach is irrelevant. The point is that your goal is to have a bunch of, um, adults interacting with the kids in a particular way, so fine, whatever that way is that that's perfectly reasonable. Um, okay. So, so is, is this, where, where are we in the phase here? Are you, is it, is it actually started or is this still an idea? It's not clear to me if, um, you know, you've already launched or,Kristina (00:12:31):Um, so I have some, I have, I've tried to launch it a couple of times, um, in that just kind of posting on different Facebook groups to gain interest on like kind of a beta testing. Like, would someone be interested in this kind of thing? Um, the link that I sent you, um, it's still wonder school listing wonder school is a really cool organization, uh, platform that they help people launch micro schools and preschools nature based programs, whatever for kids. Yeah. Um, so I basically what I've done so far, it's just to create the relationships and the alliances. So what I've done is to make like the structure of it, like what, where it would be located, how many times it would meet, what would be required of parents, um, who right now I've been doing interviews with, who would be the lead facilitator? I, of course, would be the, the, um, the program director and who would be the village.Kristina (00:13:37):I call it the village mentor. It's basically the person that's going to be guiding, um, the expert, I guess, the person that's going to be guiding the entire village of parents and having bimonthly conferences with everyone. So I've created all of those alliances and just materialized it in what you see. And the only thing that, uh, is holding me back from doing pre enrollments right now is just, um, finalizing the budget, finalizing what I'm going to offer for the educator, which is why I reached out. Um, and then securing the, I have a few candidates or a couple of candidates right now. Um, and just deciding upon the person that I'm going to go to, and then I'll be doing licensing and all that stuff with.Jonathan (00:14:24):Okay. Yep. All right. So there's a ton, there's so many factors here. So, um, what, is there a facility? I don't think you've mentioned a facilityKristina (00:14:34):Based out of my house.Jonathan (00:14:35):Okay. All right. Perfect. Because my next question was going to be capacity. So what do you imagine is the capacity, at least in this first iteration, uh, in terms of number of families or individuals,Kristina (00:14:49):I'm a small childcare. So I can only get approved for a small childcare license versus a large one. So a small one is up to eight children. Large one is I think, 12 to 14. Okay.Jonathan (00:15:05):All right. It's like,Kristina (00:15:06):You get to almost double, I think.Jonathan (00:15:09):Okay. Um, so eight children and it would be, you know, like I live behind a Montessori school and they seem to have two shifts. There's like a, there's like a morning shift and an afternoon shift in the morning shift is the littler kids. I'm going to guess they're about four or five just from looking at it, just from seeing them. And then the older kids are maybe six, seven, eight ish, six or seven ish. Um, would you, would that be this, I don't imagine that this age group, it would be a full day thing, right? Or is itKristina (00:15:42):No, it, well, that's the thing is, cause I, um, you know, I'm wanting it to be for parents that want to be more involved or are already homeschoolers. So it would be a three-day week thing for, for part-time. Um, so it's like, yeah, you're exactly right. Age eight to I'm sorry, age two to six or two to seven. Um, and it would be mixed age. Um, and Monday, Wednesday, Friday for like four hours would be the group time. Something unicorn like that I've created is to, um, budget into the schedule primary attachment building, which is basically one-on-one time with the lead teacher, uh, to have one-on-one time with each child. So, um, like kind of in the home for four hours, it's kind of like an, a nanny preschool co-op hybrid because what I found was if the teacher is just, there's not, if the teacher is just in the group setting, you don't really get to know each child, um, and especially get to know like, okay, if you have some sort of behavioral thing, let's, I don't want to be extreme and call it dysfunction, but let's say like some sort of challenge that you're having the child or multiple children in the classroom.Kristina (00:17:11):And if you, you see, you can only, like, you can't really stop it. If you don't get to the root of like, are they getting their needs met at home? Or like, what is the behavior like, you know, you can't really get into that or really connected with that. So that's why I've built that in, um, it's just to prepare my basis for that kind of, um, challenge, but also for the, for the child's sake, because you know, many, many families want to just hire a private nanny cause they want that primary attachment. They want that kind of long-term um, uh, they want that long-term relationship, but at the same time that doesn't, it doesn't take care of the, um, the need of how am I going to get my child to have safe friendships with other parents that I trust as well? Like how are we going to have support otherwise I'm just dealing with it all the time.Jonathan (00:18:10):Right. Okay. So, so when you say the primary teacher would have one-on-one time with the kids, you're talking about the primary teacher going to their house. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.Kristina (00:18:19):So it would, so I've basically created a full-time schedule for a teacher, like a 40 hour type of, so basically I cut it down to six kids, each having a four hour block with that teacher and then a four hour block, three times a week in a group setting. And then each, each of the six families get a 30 minute conference with that lead facilitator to discuss the week to discuss what's going on with their kid. What, what they're off about with other kids or whatever, whatever can be resolved in whatever cannot be resolved with that lead facilitator would then go on to be adjusted and bimonthly conference with the rice associate and PT instructor. So that's kind of how it,Jonathan (00:19:07):Okay. So, so in, in the, the primary teacher, there's, I mean the word primary means one, but is, is there just one or is it one per child? Is it like oneKristina (00:19:20):Like it's yeah, yeah. One for one for the whole school, I call it a lead facilitator. So it's basically the person that is the one objective party who is not a parent of anyone and their job is basically, um, to model the skills they're going to be more trained in Ryan PDT or more proficient in them then. So, so when the parents are volunteering, they're kind of practicing with that person.Jonathan (00:19:49):Got it. Yeah. Right. And you said that at the end of the day, that works out to about a full-time schedule for that person between, between the, the group and the individual. Okay. All right. And that person is not one of the parents. So that person is clearly a fully paid position. Yes. And did you say you were licensed for eight kids, but you're only going to do the schedule only allows for six,Kristina (00:20:17):The schedule I've created, worked out for six. And the reason for that was because I was concerned when I was concerned about COVID. I mean, obviously I can make more profit if I can put two more kids in there. And I would just, I would simply just add, you know, I would either cut everyone's one-on-one time to three hours to fit them in, or I would just add on a Saturday, if the person is wanting to work from Monday to Saturday, the, the, the challenge I got was because I found a candidate that I really liked and originally told me they wanted a full-time position. And then they told me, well, I should have said full-time income. I would like to be able to work three, three days a week and work 12 hours versus 40. Okay. And in addition to that, I don't know how much, how much longer I want to do this.Kristina (00:21:06):I read four hour work week and I want to be independently wealthy. I'm sure. You know, like, so the, the question of how is the ceiling going to be broken as far as like, you know, is the raise, is it, is it going to that, that question is, um, I feel is always going to be a concern if I'm working within this hourly structure. Cause I don't think anyone wants to work for like 30 or 40 an hour for the rest of their lives and working 40 hours a week for like three decades. I don't think, you know. Yeah. So that's why I'm like, should I hire two primary educators or lead facilitators and then say, Hey, you're both only going to work part-time and this is why the, the other 20 hours, like, if you want, I'll set you guys up all of us up all of us, meaning just three people as kind of more consultancy so that you can spend 20 hours that you can't not do the in-person part. But if you want to make, if you want to work, you know, an extra day and do you know what I mean, trying to create a different type of [inaudible].Jonathan (00:22:14):Right. So that there's incentives and all of that. So, so at this level, so with the small license, and if you're doing, let's just say six or eight kids around there. Yeah. You think you could theoretically handle it with three employees. So three people who aren't parents of the kids in the program, plus some parental volunteering. I'm assuming, let's say, let's say three, uh, equivalent of three full-time people. Right. So even,Kristina (00:22:50):Oh yeah. It would be, it would, it would be three, it would be three part-time or two, like full-time.Jonathan (00:23:00):Okay. So in you being one of the full-timeKristina (00:23:03):Yes. Even though, like that's only, like, my goal is to be a little bit more hands off eventually, but it's still ironic. Right. I wanted help with childcare and then I'm starting this thing and then I'm going to be like more involved. But I honestly think if I set it up, I could be having more and more time to myself because it's literally, if I don't make this, then it's like, I'll have time to myself, but I'm going to be an anxiety all the time. Like trying to stomach what my child is going to what's happening. Do you know what I mean? I'm grading this so I can be hands off a little bit more and relax.Jonathan (00:23:41):Uh that's. I, it is funny, um, what you got here, what you've got here is an structure. So you've created a structure, um, and you've got a really strong worldview. And if you can find, uh, you know, let's say each, each family only has one child that would be in this program. If you can find six families that, that agree with this worldview and they want to be in this tribe, they want you to sort of lead them in this portion of their lives. You know, their children's education, early education. Um, let's just, let's just assume for the time being, you can find six families like that. And then let's just assume you can find, uh, the lead facilitators that kind of have their hearts in the right place. Like they actually want to do this because this is not a great way to make a million dollars. If you're, you know, they could go work at a Starbucks and not have to think about anything. So of course you're going to, and I know obviously people that do have their heart in the right place exists. So let's just say you can find them. And you know, they're not like giant Tim Ferris fans and they want to doKristina (00:24:53):Well. That's the thing is that if I, if my heart is in the right place, am I, that's why I'm like, can I create something for someone to, to take this journey on with me and still be a Tom Ferriss fan, like, you know, 20 hours a week you're with these children, the other 20 hours, we can build your wealth and record all the bi-monthly conferences and the, and the weekly conferences that they do with the, with the families, because they're going to be providing value during those conferences each week. Do you know what I mean? Yeah,Jonathan (00:25:24):I get it. Um, it does feel like there are much easier ways to, to, to have a four hour work week than something like this. This is extremely complicated. It is, it's extremely complicated. You could sell vitamins online and, and have more luck, you know, or not more luck necessarily, but it would be a lot less to worry about. So you kind of have to decide, is this really the what's the competing goal? Like, are you more, and I don't mean you, I mean, in general. So like when, when, when one is deciding to start a business, you know what you need to understand the motivations, like if your motivations, so like, what's the, what's the mission is the, is the V or what's the vision is the mission to revolutionize the way that, you know, young children are, you get their sort of first taste of education or, um, to, you know, is there a bigger picture mission, or is it a little bit more, um, income focused or lifestyle focus, which is totally fine.Jonathan (00:26:27):You know, if you want to have a lifestyle business or you want to maybe even something bigger than a lifestyle business is this that's fine. As long as you know that, but those two things do not necessarily overlap, uh, because the, the path of doing a really complicated that you're, I shouldn't, I keep saying complicated, it's complicated in the sense that you have to get an enormous amount of buy-in from a, a decent sized people group of people. So, you know, starting off with, with, um, you know, you've got to, it's just a very specific kind of parent, it's a very specific kind of employee. Um, yeah. And I could just, you know, there are, there are easier ways to make money online. You know, that that would afford you probably just as much money, but we can, let's talk about money next. So let's say, let's say that you are in a mission and the desire to create a new, you know, the unicorn school call it this new structure that is fundamentally different from anything else that's out there.Jonathan (00:27:32):It's for a very specific kind of parent. There's not, there's not millions of them, but there might be hundreds of thousands of them who want to have this kind of experience. Okay. That's a big market, big enough market. Um, the how from the employee standpoint, uh, what I'm wrestling with is which motivations, which incentives are going to be the most effective. So let's just start with the easy one. Let's say that you, in order to get people that you trust that are going to stick around, you need to pay them $200,000 a year. So, you know, you're, you're, uh, you've got you and one lead facilitator. So right off the bat, you need basically call it $500,000 a year, fully loaded costs. So, you know, you're paying like whatever you're paying for at least FICA and 500 grand. Okay. So that's basically a hundred grand per family, roughly a little bit less than a hundred grand per family is, do you think that the money would motivate the right person? So this lead facilitator, do you think the money would motivate that person to actually be good and stay good at their job and stay with you? Or do you think that there needs to be something else? Do they need to, like, is there some other motivation that like the money wouldn't cut it or do you think the money would cut it?Jonathan (00:29:08):Um,Kristina (00:29:10):I think it's both because right now, because right now I'm working in the childcare industry paradigm, which is nanny's the cheapest nanny is going to go for 15. The most expensive line is going to go 15 an hour. That was just like the cheapest teacher or nanny who's going to go for that low. And then for the most skilled, you know, ride trained person is going to go between 40 and 60 an hour. Um, so the, that I've got is trying to negotiate, you know, like a hun in the low one, like a hundred thousand a year. Um, and the, even if I offered that, if I could find a way that could offer that, that the concern with that particular person was, um, them wanting that kind of income and wanting to only work three days a week. Um, and, and, uh, like not wanting to do this forever or wanting to be able to like, become independently wealthy. So it's either an incompatibility with that person. Yeah. Um, or it's something that I'm going to have to adjust with anyone that comes comes in. It's like everybody wants to be able to, to work less. So if I'm offering something of, Hey, if you're only on the field physically 20 hours and the other 20 hours, I could help you create other things. That's kind ofJonathan (00:30:53):Work. Full-time like lots of people work full-time. So I'm sure you'll be able to find someone who's not averse to working full-time. Yeah. Okay. So, but, and if you're offering a quarter of a million dollars in salary, you could probably find someone who used to run a school or, uh, was a principal or something that is certified in all the things that you want. And they're a lifelong educator and they, aren't looking to spend less time with kids. They're looking to spend more time with kids. That's true. Right. So I'm sure that person exists, uh, at, at that salary. So, you know, if, but see it, but I don't think the salary alone is gonna, is going to make anybody. I mean, I can guarantee you that money wouldn't make me want to do it. Like it's not my calling to spend my day with, you know, whatever six kids.Jonathan (00:31:40):And, and honestly, I driving around to their houses and not, it doesn't interest me there. It doesn't matter. You could pay me a million dollars. I wouldn't do it. Yes. So the money's not going to do the, money's not going to, um, it's not going to be the only solution you still need. You still need the right person. But if you, if your salary was in that range, you have an entirely different pool of people to choose from because they wouldn't be, you know, perhaps they're later in life and they're looking for, you know, reconnecting with their, their original experience of being an early education, uh, teach kindergarten teacher or whatever. And maybe they're looking at retirement and that, but they've still got like five good years. Um, they w whatever, I mean, I'm sure the person exists if you're, if you're, if the salary is up in adult territory, um, adult professional territory, I should say, I mean, plenty of adults don't make a quarter of a million dollars a year, but if the salary is up there, you're going to have an entirely different group of people are interested in, in talking, uh, if you're talking.Jonathan (00:32:43):Yeah. So if you're talking to a bunch of people who are currently consider themselves like gig workers and they're nannying on the side, that's that, that to me sounds like who you're talking to now is someone who kind of sees it as a side hustle or something to make ends meet while they figure out their online empire.Kristina (00:33:00):Uh, well, no, the, the one particular person I worked with, uh, has worked in early child, early childhood education, and has she was a nanny for high net worth families. Um, and so she's like tasted both of what it's like to be flown out on private jets, like just to nanny for a weekend for this, you know, family or, you know, working in a preschool. And what interested her with, you know, what I was creating was basically, obviously the structure I've created cuts down on the dysfunction. It positions her as a, as a collaborator or as a partner instead of like hands as you would call it to where it's like, you're my nanny. I'm going to tell you how to nanny my child. It's like, no, I want the lead facilitator to be so proficient in these skills that they model, what, what, you know, you're kind of like a TA or like helping to, um, to guide the parents,Jonathan (00:33:59):Brittany, you know, like your parents wrong.Kristina (00:34:02):Well, I, yeah. I want, I want parents who want, who want guidance, right?Jonathan (00:34:07):Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And like I said before, I don't think, you know, I think it's, uh, um, the segment of the population that, that AE wants to parent in this way, B has a child in this age range, and C has the amount of money that they're going to have to pay to do something like this. It's probably pretty small, but it's way more than six. So, yeah. Right. So it's just a question of finding those people. And if you're on this mission, it would be, I think, well, either also located too, it's also not remote, so it's going to be located to your geography. Um, but you know, that's, uh, that's actually a plus and minus, because if you are active in your community, then people are gonna know about it and you're automatically where it is going to spread to the, uh, your demo, you know, your demographic.Jonathan (00:34:53):All right. So, so let's talk about, I mean, the, the conversation, uh, the email conversation originally started around value pricing. So this doesn't really strike me as an opportunity for value pricing in the narrowly defined way that I think about it. So in, in my, my definition is a little bit more narrow than the general description. So for me, value pricing is the perfect fit for project kind of work. And you could see this as a, you could kind of see the, you know, you know, age two and a half to six, you could see that as a, like a three and a half year project, but it doesn't, that would really be trying to shoe horn concept, uh, is where it doesn't belong. This feels more like a subscription model. It's not a subscription, but it's more like a subscription model. And, and, you know, people like Ron Baker would say that, that, you know, subscription models are like value pricing, 3.0 or 2.0, whatever.Jonathan (00:35:56):He says, it's in a sense you can value price it technically. Um, but the mechanics of setting the price are completely different than the mechanics of setting the price, a value price for a project, because a project, a client comes along or a buyer or a parent in this case, and they've got a project for you. They, it, it has a desired end state. There's a desired outcome. There's a transformation that takes place in their life. That that is the metric for success. So in this case, it could, you know, just, this is really stretching it and could potentially be something that's impossible to commit to any way. But let's say someone got a child with a really bad behavior, you know, really intense behavioral issues that are causing them to act out in ways that are not socially acceptable. And the PR the project is make that stop happening, you know, and you can say, okay, this, this is a really bad example of value pricing because it's B to C, but, um, uh, but you could put a price on that.Jonathan (00:36:58):Like the parent, not you, but the parent could put a price on that. They would say they would, there's an amount of money that they'd be willing to spend to improve this condition. So, you know, and it's going to depend on how much money they have their buying power. It's going to depend on how severe the situation is, how much pain they're in. And it's going to depend on, uh, who they perceive to be the alternatives to hiring you or what they perceive to be the alternatives to hiring you. So those three factors of max price, formula factors crop in crop up when you're doing a value pricing, uh, engagement. So let's, let's, let's do a little bit less sensitive. One, let's say someone came to you and said, Hey, we want, we want you to design a school for us. I want you to design a curriculum or put together a structure for us.Jonathan (00:37:42):And you'd say, okay, how'd you measure the success? How would, you know, if it was, if I hit a home run, how would, you know, if I totally failed? And it just blew up in our faces and you would, you'd talk with a specific potential buyer, get a sense of what the outcome is worth to them. And you would come up with ways that you could help them get closer to that goal at different price points, and then they could pick a price. So it's, so the mechanics of value pricing that's to me, that's value pricing the way I talk about it. Um, when you're value pricing, a group, the mechanics are completely different. So I don't even use the same term, even though technically, you know, value always comes into a buying decision. Uh, I wouldn't talk about it, like value pricing. What I would do is, um, treat it more like a subscription-based product. I service that hasJonathan (00:38:32):A, it hasJonathan (00:38:36):A number of components because first it's got a dollar amount that would be attached to it. Let's say it's a hundred thousand dollars a year. And, uh, plus there's a time commitment. They, the parent needs to volunteer for X number of sessions. They probably I'm sure they have to go through an approval process. Like I assume that they would have to apply and you'd meet with them. And all of that,Kristina (00:39:00):There's only a once a month that they'd have to volunteerJonathan (00:39:04):Only once a month.Kristina (00:39:07):There's only once, once a month that, uh, they would, uh, one parent would have to volunteer.Jonathan (00:39:14):Was it, but would there be an application process? Like, would you interview them before accepting them?Kristina (00:39:18):Exactly. Yeah. We'd have to see it. Yeah.Jonathan (00:39:21):If they're on the same page. Yeah. Okay. So then, so that's not once a month, that's not a huge commitment, but for someone who has a full-time job, that's problematic. So not everyone's going to want to do that. It's, it's part of the payment air quotes, part of their, um, shared accountability of their shared responsibility. Um, so there's that, and then they need to be, uh, presumably if the lead facilitator is going to be modeling behavior in the home, then the parent needs to be present for that. Right. So it's not like a babysitter's there and they can just go to the shopping.Kristina (00:39:58):Well, uh, initially yes. Uh, eventually they could view it as an opportunity for like, you know, a mother's helper type thing, meaning that they're there to help and they can be at the house, or they can not be in the initial stages because we're all, you know, mastering these things. The first 10 weeks of enrollment will include, uh, like a, like a weekly class so that everybody understands like the terminology and the things that we're doing, the practical things.Jonathan (00:40:29):Cool. Okay. Yeah. You've got it. So, yeah. So let's move into differentiators. So, so when, when parents who might be parents for you, so like parents that are kind of candidates to be your, what do you call them? Call it clients.Kristina (00:40:44):Yeah. I don't know. Village members,Jonathan (00:40:49):Your villagers. All right. So let's say, you know, Alison Bob or potential villagers, what else are they looking at? You know, when they're looking at like, Oh, this unicorn school is like, well, that's a hundred grand. It's very interesting. It's got all these different components and we, we support the mission. That's on the website here. What are the other things they're considering?Kristina (00:41:10):They're probably going to consider full-time care at that price. If like, if someone's paying 60 an hour for 40 hours a week, that's like 115 grand for a private nanny to be there full time for their kids. That's the alternative it's like, you could do that.Jonathan (00:41:29):Private nanny is about 150, a year hundred and 15. Yeah. All right. So you're cheaper than a private nanny plus you're educating the parents plus yeah.Kristina (00:41:41):The thing that, the thing that I can't do is I CA I can't like, I, I can't compete with the time that a private nanny is going to provide the private nanny is going to provide 40 plus hours a week at that price point. And I'm not providing that because I don't particularly think it's, um, like I'm trying to make it, it's more for families who spend more time with their children. And they, they kind of don't want to be full time with their children all the time, or are like, are unable to arrange free childcare with relatives or whoever, um, so that they can get time to themselves. It's, it's the, it's a part-time structure. Each child is not going to get full time, like ever from, from this structure.Jonathan (00:42:30):Okay. So, so private full-time private name is probably not a fair comparison then, because the villagers don't want that anyway. Okay. Maybe part-time one. Okay.Kristina (00:42:41):Um, a part-time a part-time line at that price point. Would, you know, then it would be less than that. It would be 60 to 80 grand a year for a part-time private nanny. Um, you could also look at like, I've done market research for competitors, like other part-time rye inspired programs, um, in LA. And they go for, for full-time for that program is going to be 2200 a month at most. Um, and then for part-time then would be in the 15, 15, 14, 1500 Mark for a month. So that's originally what I was pricing it at. I was originally pricing it to be competitive with, you know, what else is comparable, which is a part-time preschool program that is right. Inspired.Kristina (00:43:42):[inaudible]Kristina (00:43:42):It doesn't have the parent education aspect.Jonathan (00:43:45):Exactly. So if, and, uh, what else is different? Yeah. Part time.Kristina (00:43:56):It's just, it's impossible not to, to transform as a parent in this structure, because there, there's no way that you, you can be because there's feedback loops every week. There's no, it's usually a parent is going to want this, if they actually want to do parenting well, versus to just get help with childcare, with someone who's the best of the best. Like, you know, there are two different things,Jonathan (00:44:20):Right. That's my, that's, that's what I'm getting at. So is there, what are the other things that make it different? Is there, so like the parent thing, you know, it's kind of like the, I could see the tagline, like be the parent your kids actually want kind of, you know, it's, it's, it's more, yeah, it's more, I feel like it's more about the parent almost than the kids. Cause so let's, let's drill into the let's drill into the kids. How different is going. Is that the experience for the child between what you would offer in what a normal Ryan Spire part-time preschool experience or like the Montessori school behind my house?Kristina (00:44:56):Well, first off, it's going to be different because they're the, they're not there. The children are going to, this is like the whole soap box education thing about, um, the children are gonna be a lot more self-aware, um, they're going to be a lot more, um, they're going to have safer relationships. So if you don't want, if, if you want to be someone who wants to save in therapy for when your child is a teenager or an adult, you know, it's not save a fortune, but like, I, you know, th I feel like there's this movement where people are starting to understand that. And then in addition, or instead of a college fund, you're going to need a therapy fund. You know, because like, honestly, like me, if I look back on my own childhood, my own teens, my own therapy that I paid for as a young adult, that I didn't invent, that I could have invested in my own business or self-development in my college years.Kristina (00:45:59):And, and after college years, that's like thousands of dollars that I, and paint like paint, you cannot get that time back. You cannot get that life back. Like as someone who has survived, suicidal depression and someone who has survived self-harm and all of these mental health things, you cannot put a price tag on the absence of that. It's like, it's, you know, and a lot of it comes down to when it comes to addiction and mental health and all of these things, it comes down to attachment I've I've, you know, talked with I've had sessions with the pioneering psychologist, you know? Um, and it, it does, it does come down to what is, what was your, how healthy were your attachments? How, what was the level? There's a way there's a metric. How can you measure emotional safety in the home or psychological safety in the home? How can you measure emotional neglect? There are things that like, but they're, they're defined by the DSM of what is, what defines emotional neglect, what defines emotional abuse. And this structure is meant to decrease that emotional and psychological harm in the classroom and out of it. Because even if you did it in the classroom, you cannot, like, you're just putting a bandaid on it. You're not addressing, like, you know, it's like, it's a wasted effort to manage stuff that should be eliminated in the home. Like inefficient. Yeah. That was a sort of missionJonathan (00:47:30):Statement there, like narrative about it. And it also indicates to me who your target market probably is. So people who have had experiences like yours, who now have kids and don't want their kids to have that same experience, but aren't equipped to do anything about it because of the behavior. Let's say their parents are teachers modeled to them. They don't know another way. They just know it. The outcome is not good. So for someone like that, that's been through years of therapy and had some scary stuff going on, then they might be, uh, that seems like those are people who would just be all over this, honestly. Yeah. Very excited about this idea. So there's really no. So there's no comparison, therefore, you shouldn't be modeling your prices on something that is apples to oranges. So, uh, it's also very interesting to me to consider the idea of, um, pressing this annually instead of monthly,Kristina (00:48:30):They do do that. They do do that on some school pages where they price it at a yearly tuition versus, um,Jonathan (00:48:41):Yeah. I mean, the private schools around us are not, not the same thing, but the private schools around here, you don't pay by the month. It's, it's an annual tuition and it's a lot. So, uh, and the schools have waiting lists. So there are people that have a lot of money that will pay for this sort of thing. Um, I mean, like the kindergarten next, like down the street from our house is $35,000 a year for like a generic kindergarten.Kristina (00:49:08):It's just really funny. Cause you're going to pay $35,000 a year. And I guarantee you like, you know, therapists that, that model with therapy, you're, you're going to be having 300, the 200 to 300 an hour each week for a number of months. It's still a price tag on that, you know? So I just, it's funny.Jonathan (00:49:32):Well, I think the, I mean, that's all that speaks to the rational mind a little bit, but it's also in the distant future. So I think the, I think the powerful, the more powerful angle is what you were saying about like that pain. You don't get that back like that doesn't get erased. You don't get that time back. There's a money component too, but that's nothing compared to the, the, the struggle, you know? Yeah. Like the, especially talking to a parent that like wouldn't, that has had bad experiences and is afraid that they're going to do the same thing, you know? So for that person, and if, you know, if this is a private jet kind of person, I don't think, you know, I don't think mid to high five figures or low six figures is out of the question. Cause it's not that it's not the same thing. It's, it's almost like it's more like parent training with some, with some daycare associated with it. That's how it feels. Yeah.Kristina (00:50:30):It's, it's a, it's like, um, parent training with, uh, with an on-field component. Cause as much, like, let's say if I created a digital product or like a workshop or like some sort of consultancy where parents could pick my brain every month, it's not going to make them, it's not going to make a difference if they don't practice it on the field. So what I'm providing is a structure where if they're located close to me, they could practice these things and yeah. Yeah. Because yeah, you, yeah, you can read a book all day long. It doesn't mean you're gonna know how to like be a master at basketballJonathan (00:51:14):Of course, but the book's only $10 and going to, not everybody can afford a hundred thousand dollars a year for, for parent lab. Yeah. So for the people who can't then remote assistance or a book or course, or something as if that's the most they can afford, uh, that's the that's the most they can afford. Um, okay. So this, a lot of the, I think a lot of the, um, I think your differentiator, it seems really large. It seems really large. I don't know if there are other alternatives that you would list to something like this. I've never heard of anything, which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but, uh, I am kind of somewhat in the demo cause we're homeschoolers. So it's kind of like, it's kind of like, we, it would, it would be good to have. I mean, it would be good to have more group experiences with the kids.Jonathan (00:52:10):Particularly my older one, he really likes being around lots of kids. Uh, and you know, and we had that, but not with the pandemic now it's been not so much so, but I can imagine someone who, uh, normally doesn't have some kind of regular structure for their kids to be socialized with other kids, especially if they enjoy that. And this is an interesting, uh, it's an interesting pitch to people who, um, I really, I really think that, yeah, I think that's a strong angle so that the, since it's located in, since it's regional, so it's, it's uh, ha they have to be people near you, a contributing factor to your success, or at least the prices that you can charge is going to have everything to do with how much wealth there is in your area. And like what the buying power is for people who are within a reasonable driving distance, uh, from your location. So assuming that you've got rich people nearby, then you could probably, I mean, that's what it is. Like if you have rich, rich people nearby, then you could, I mean, you could really, you could charge a lot more than $1,500 a month. Let's put it that way. Um,Kristina (00:53:26):It's like, it's, there's different price points to this still. If I was creating some, like if I was creating, like, let's say six families and Beverly Hills Belair and Brentwood, those are the premier type of neighborhoods near me. Yeah. Six, six families who are all high net worth, but they are wanting to, to lessen the dysfunction inside their home and with their, they want, you know, you don't make that type of wealth if you're not wanting your kid to like, have a happy different life. Um, yeah. So it's part-time anyway, because of that structure, you want to be able to have them do what they want to do within a day instead of be in a facility, forced to do whatever for eight hours a day. So I could do that there, where I'm located, where me and my daughter are, are in long beach. So that's why the 1500 a month price point is kind of, unless I'm going to downtown long beach. But another question is like to create this model that also allows for diversity, you know, so because of the in-person component, um, I can anyway, that's something that you want, but what I've been playing with is this in-person thing. And then as well as the digital things, so like creating virtual co-ops where, you know, kids are relating virtually and parents are participating virtually is, is like another thing, especially with the pandemic going on. Right. Um, butJonathan (00:55:08):Yeah, so like from a product leader standpoint, that makes a lot of sense to me, it removes the geographic restriction and, you know, you could have something farther down the, the pricing ladder you could sell the model, you can say, here's the model. You need this kind of person, you need two people like this, they need to have these certifications. Uh, here's how you run, you know, once, once you have your proof of concept up and running and you have like glowing testimonials and successful kids and parents, you could say, Hey, here's this model and you can buy it to run a, you know, unicorn school near you, almost like a franchise type of thing where yeah. And then there's your four hour workweek. So, uh, you know, so I, obviouslyKristina (00:55:59):I got a four hour work week out of this conversation.Jonathan (00:56:03):Yeah. All you have to do is prove the model and be, look wildly successful first. Um, so, okay. So it's, it's an interesting concept. You've got strong differentiators. Uh, there's probably a high desire among the, the tribe of right people, the villagers that you're looking for, there's going to be a high desire. So the, the factor that is unknown is the, um, the buying power. So that's, that's going to be the limiting factor, I think, on the, on the S the price ceiling, um, you know, like the, you know, the, there, we live near a couple of really expensive private schools and they have, you know, speaking to the diversity thing, they've got, um, scholarships and they have, uh, endowments, you know, so theoretically you could, uh, you know, do almost like an affirmative affirmative action kind of thing. I don't know. I don't actually know what I'm talking about, but, but I know like Harvard and, uh, expensive, higher education institutions have sort of a weighted scale for, um, you know, who gets admitted and how much financial aid they get. So you could imagine having a really high price tag and for people who, you know, don't qualify for financial aid, they pay that really high price tag. And that helps fund some of the people who can't afford the really high price tag, uh, how you work out the mechanics of that. I have no idea, but obviously people have figured that out. So it seems like a solved problem.Jonathan (00:57:33):Yeah. SoKristina (00:57:34):There's one school I'm thinking of in particular, that does, that, does that they charge tuition based on the household income, actually, it's like a personJonathan (00:57:45):And that's in a way that's closer to value pricing than, than setting a fixed price and then kind of discounting for, with financial aid or whatever. But, um, yeah. And then the last thing that's kind of on my mind that there's something about monthly, there's something about the monthly subscription or the monthly model that I don't like. I understand that it, that it aligns with how people usually get paid and therefore probably makes it more affordable, more affordable in a cashflow sense, but there's the, it projects a lack of commitment that I don't love. So if the parent is like, if the parent is paying monthly, it stands to reason that they could pull the kid out in the middle of a school year or whatever, like an arc, is it, is this something that would have arcs like a traditional school year or does it kind of not matter? Like, and the other thing with the monthly here's, here's the behavior that I don't like, and you'd need to address this somehow is parents dropping in and out of it. So like, Oh, we're going to go on vacation for two months. So we're not going to pay for the next two months, but we'll be back in September. Like, that seems really disruptive to me. If, if it's not disruptive then fine. But if it feels disruptive, I wouldn't want to encourage that.Kristina (00:59:06):It is, I haven't figured out, um, an alternative for it. Other than like, for example, on, on that listing that I sent you when there's like different holidays, I say those holidays are optional because the person that we hire would still be available during those holidays, because not every family recognizes that as a holiday, you know, for cultural reasons or whatever. And I want to respect that. So, um, if it was a,Jonathan (00:59:34):I, I just think, you know, I think the approach is an annual, it feels, it's like, look, if you want to go on vacation fine, but that doesn't change the amount of money you're paying for the year. Just like with a private school. Yeah.Kristina (00:59:48):We're still going to be practicing as a parent while you're on vacation. And maybe some things, you know, something's going to hit the fan and you might need to call us and get some guidance. Yeah.Jonathan (00:59:57):Yeah. I'm feeling pretty strongly about not using a monthly payment model. Um, I know that complicates things, but, uh, your, your addressable that your capacity is so low, you know, six families that you want to, you want people that are committed to it, like committed to the thing. And aren't like, Oh, well, and not even thinking you want them to be not thinking about the money. That's the other thing you don't want every month, like here comes this $3,000 bill, or here comes this thousand dollar bill. Again, she's, that's more than our health insurance. I don't know if this is really working, you know, and you, in the first two months, they like chicken out because they haven't fully onboarded. They haven't fully got the benefits. They haven't fully committed. I F I feel like it really should be an annual fee. And if they choose not to show up for two weeks, because they went to Paris. Okay, well, you know, that's fine.Kristina (01:00:55):You still get these benefits or you can still meet up virtually if you want to pop it or whatever. Yeah,Jonathan (01:01:00):Exactly.Kristina (01:01:03):Okay. Um, I don't really know. I have a question about annual then, is that an a hundred percent paying for the year upfront? Or is that so someone coughing up a hundred thousand dollars upfront?Jonathan (01:01:20):Well, let's turn it around and say, why not do that?Kristina (01:01:26):Well, if they could then great. I just, I imagine that you've, I imagine that even the people that can, might, would they ask for a different option and should I offer it? Okay.Jonathan (01:01:42):Um, the other options, I think you've already listed other good options, which, which is this sort of, um, remote version where nobody's traveling around, um, maybe it's a bigger cohort, maybe it's multiple cohorts. Um, but the, the F the sort of resistance that you're feeling to imagining someone dropping a hundred grand upfront, um, there's a lot of ways to deal with that. So there's a couple of factors. One is that you're afraid. It sounds like from what you just said, you're afraid they're not going to trust you. Like, what if you just disappear with our money kind of thing. So you do have to address that problem. How are they going to trust that you're the real deal like that you're a flake and you're not going to take off. And, you know, and that's just a trust building exercise. So if it's a small community thing and it's word of mouth, and you've got a good track record in the community, um, you know, whatever you're active in some church or something, and everybody knows you, it's going to be easier to, to, uh, you know, uh, clear that hurdle.Jonathan (01:02:44):Um, and the other way is to lower the price so that the risk doesn't seem as severe. So maybe it's $50,000 a year. Maybe there's a pioneer program where, you know, the first year pioneers, you know, the village, they, you know, get this one-time $50,000 a year or $30,000 a year, whatever it is. And, uh, and then they're like, yeah, they're bought in on the concept. They believe in the worldview. So here's, here's a, let me paint a picture for you. Let's say you go on, um, sort of a podcasting tour, uh, PR you try and do a lot of PR where you beat this drum about the mission to break the chain of emotional abuse. And here's how you do it. And, uh, we look like, I don't want to say daycare. We look like a traditional private nanny, or we look like you might compare us to a private part-time preschool, but that's not what we are.Jonathan (01:03:42):There's a component of kids in a room with adults there, but this is more about modeling a good parenting for parents who have never had that model. Right? So you go around and you're talking about this P it's resonating with people, and you end up on, um, NPR. Then you're going to have zero problems selling this, right. Because you've got a mission and it's going to resonate. It might not resonate with anybody. I feel like it will though. So it resonates with some people and you become like, like educator to the stars. And you know what I mean? Then they're going to not think twice about it because they trust you because of the third-party validation and the social proof. So right now it feels impossible. Probably feels impossible to imagine six people coughing up a hundred grand, but that's because they don't know you yet. You're not famous yet. If you were famous, it'd be no problem.Kristina (01:04:37):I think it, it doesn't feel impossible to find the people that can, because if I met six people in these different, you know, neighborhoods that I just mentioned, you know, that wouldn't, it wouldn't be an issue of finding the people that can, I feel like what I'm ill equipped with is to be able to do the role playing like pushback stuff, where it, like, if they give me pushback or something, even though they can, how me not being experienced in being able to what to say, where to stand, what energy to give, push back. Like if we played right now, if I was like, okay, this is going to cost a hundred thousand a year or 150,000 a year, you can go and hire. I have a great alternative nanny agency, if you'd rather prefer a private nanny for full-time care. Cause that's what you want. Yeah.Jonathan (01:05:30):Well, you're already, you're already talking me out of it. You didn't, if we're role-playingKristina (01:05:36):Lot to say, but that that's not what I'm selling. I'm like, that's not going to save you the dysfunction, right?Jonathan (01:05:41):No, no, no, no. I know. I know, but leave some more space in there. Right. So, so I'll say, well, how this program sounds really interesting. How much is itKristina (01:05:49):A hundred thousand dollars a yearJonathan (01:05:52):Stop. Yes, exactly. Stop there. Like a hundred thousand dollars. I could get a full-time nanny for that.Kristina (01:05:58):Yeah. You couldJonathan (01:06:02):Perfect. Exactly. Exactly.Kristina (01:06:04):I w I watched your a thing, so I,Jonathan (01:06:07):Yeah. That's exactly it. Yeah. That's exactly it. Go ahead. If that's what you want. That's not what we are. So it's as simple as that, honestly. So if they, if they came to you, so if you're getting inbound leads and you're not cold calling people and knocking on doors, but if, if your name is out there and people are coming to you, they believe that you have something for them because they aren't going to waste their time. Talking to some, someone who they don't believe could maybe improve their lives. So, you know, already that they are considering it, they could be misunderstanding what it is in which case you, you know, you need to improve your marketing, make it more clear, increase the clarity, and then clarify with them on the, on the meeting, what actually is involved. And then when they get to the point where I honestly, I just put the price tag on the website, and then nobody is no one will even call you unless they think that's something they can afford.Jonathan (01:06:59):Like maybe, you know, you put the price on the website, it's a hundred grand a year. Uh, and you know, um, uh, I don't know what you would call it, uh, financial aid available or whatever. And then some like high net worth individuals are not going to want to say, Oh yeah, we got financial aid to put our kid in this unicorn program. You know, they're just going to pay it. It's all about, I think the, the bigger thing is, um, I mean, you have, there's a whole bunch of steps still like proving the model, running it a couple of times, make sure that, that, you know, there's nothing is ever, you know, no plan survives contact with the enemy. There's going to be lots of surprises. Um, but if you, uh, if you get over that and you get over those hurdles and youth and you, I'm not perfect, but you know, create like a well-oiled machine. You've got a good process. You're really happy with it. You make some tweaks, you're getting great testimonials. And, uh, you know, the kids are gonna, I mean, the kids, theoretically, once you, once you sell six families, theoretically, they're going to be in it for three years, four years. Right.Kristina (01:08:01):Until the kids are old enough where like, if the parents are that unschooling home-schooling type of family and they're like, okay, our kids are like eight now, now they want to go and travel the world and do world schooling and like, go see the wall China and not learn about it in a book. Now it's time to like, leave the co-op for a year, because we want to spend a year in China right. In the beginning. And the kids don't really want to do that when they're under age six, they're like, Oh, I want my friends. And I want, you know, they want to be home. Right. Yeah.Jonathan (01:08:32):So, okay. Um, where was I going with that though? So as you're building up your reputation, you'd be able to increase the tuition every year. And, and the more we talk about it, the more I like the annual tuition and not like a monthly payment. And ideally what would end up happening is that you'd start getting a waiting list and then you'd have, um, options, you know, you like, well, do I, do I take one of my current lead facilitators? And he, or she starts a new location, you know, in a 100 miles away or 60 miles away, you know, near a wealthier community or something. And, you know, basically you'll have some demand, you'd be able to follow the demand and say like, okay, how could we address this demand? Or maybe you, you create new products and services like, uh, remote learning pods or courses, or, um, branch off and do more specific targeted things that are just for the parents or people who don't have kids yet, and are, you know, are afraid to have kids because they had such a horrible upbringing.Jonathan (01:09:34):So maybe you've got, you know, additional things that you can, um, begin to offer once you see a demonstrated demand. But the core piece of, I think, I think the core piece of any of this working is focusing way more on the mission, the change that you want to make, the difference you want to make in the world and way less on the money. Cause when we, when we talked earlier and when in the earlier part of this conversation, there was a lot of, um, you know, a lot of like hourly rates were mentioned, and it's just, it's the wrong thing to talk about. It's the wrong thing to think about. It's more like, think about what's the big picture mission be talking about that to anybody who'll listen and just forget and, and fund the mission somehow, you know, without, without running the numbers too hard or being like, Oh, you know, I want to get down to four hours per week. I think, I actually think it would be easier if you thought about the money less and the mission more and set your prices high enough that you had the resilience to figure things out through throughout the first year with real life families and run the model and S and then perfect it.Kristina (01:10:52):Okay. It's not going to be easy,Jonathan (01:10:55):But no one said it would be, if you want easy to sell vitamin supplements online.Kristina (01:10:59):Well, if I want it easy, I would just enroll my child in a school. One of the third. Yeah. But again, that's not easy because the relationship and then the therapy and the decades of suffering that's yeah.Jonathan (01:11:15):Well, it's the long-term versus short-term worldview. Yeah. So you're taking a very long, very long view, which is great. Yeah. Cool. Unfortunately I have to wrap up. Um, no, that's great. But hopefully this has been helpful. It's been super interesting to me.Kristina (01:11:32):Cool. Yeah, it has been, um, I think getting clear on the, on the, on the yearly thing versus the monthly thing, um, we'll kind of safeguard and provide a lot more resilience versus the monthly. I think you had a really good point about that. Cool. Um, okay. Well, thank you so much.Jonathan (01:11:52):Yeah. My pleasure. Where can people go to find out more about what you're doing?Kristina (01:11:59):Well, I have an Instagram page. It's at Kristina Rio, actually. It's K R I S T I N a R I O underscore. Um, soon there will be a website up, um, for harmony family network is going to be the name of the co-op. That's great. So right now we're on winter school, but the, the website will be up soon harmony family network.com. Great. Um, and that's how people would be able to find this in.Jonathan (01:12:36):Excellent. Well, dear listener, if you are in the long beach area, or if you know someone who is, or if you've got suggestions or feedback or anything like that, uh, that's where you can find Kristina and that'll do it for this time around I'm Jonathan Stark, and you've been listening to ditching hourly. Bye. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Lawyer Digby Leigh joins me to share his experience converting his 30 person law firm from hourly billing to up front pricing. Digby's Links: Leigh & Co Digby's LinkedIn AltFeeCo.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The lovely and talented Blair Enns joins me to explore the question: WHAT IS STRATEGY?BLAIR'S LINKS Win Without Pitching Blair's Twitter INTERACTIVE TRANSCRIPThttps://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/m4jr6P_aQ9TmpdBKT3aCBIwyEF8RQOW6iVR4dv8w_tR26FKubH_uHjRLazDIaBMaGii5Y7IGnLKWWyV6XLOhdZXkG_E?loadFrom=SharedLinkTEXT TRANSCRIPTJonathan (00:00): Hello and welcome to ditching hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. And today I am joined by a very special guest Blair ends. Blair, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Jonathan. Great to be here. So I feel like you need no introduction, but can I put you on the spot and for anybody who hasn't heard your name before you maybe give them a, a quick name, rank and serial number. Yeah,Blair (00:22): Name rank. So I'm the founder and CEO of win without pitching the sales training organization for creative professionals. I've written two books the win without pitching manifesto in 2010 and pricing creativity, a guide to profit beyond the billable hour in 2018, three years ago.Jonathan (00:47): Great stuff. Love it. Okay. So the, the sort of impetus for this conversation was a tweet that you tweeted, obviously something you posted on Twitter about strategy. So what's the, what's the sort of backstory here.Blair (01:01): Yeah. And I forget exactly what the exchange was, but you and I were trading some pretty good definitions of strategy. One of my hobbies is I collect answers to the question, what is strategy? Because strategy is one of those words, like time and money are in the same category. They're they're words. We think we know the meaning of them until we're asked to define them. And then it turns out very few people have satisfactory answers to the question of what is strategy. And then when you get into that, then it's, it begs all kinds of other questions around this topic of strategy. So it's a rich vein for a podcast episode that's for sure.Jonathan (01:43): Absolutely. Well, so what are some of the answers that you've collected? I mean, do, do you feel like there are, do you feel like they sort of coalesce around a correct answer or is it just like people have different definitions and if it works for them great. What do you, what do you, what are your findings?Blair (02:03): I I've, I've asked hundreds of people this question, and I've asked it from a stage, you know, many times as well. So, you know, easily, I've heard hundreds of answers where, or in excess of 100 answers. And the most common answer is just an insufficient answer is an answer that, that says this person hasn't thought about the question, which isn't, you know, I'm, I'm sure there, there are a hundred words that I think I know the definition to that. If you ask me to define, I couldn't have a strategy, is, is one of those words. Usually the answer is some variation of a really smart plan. But the origin of the question why I first started asking it was so win without pitching is a training company, but we used to be, we used to be me a solo consulting practice. And I used to hear from my clients a lot.Blair (02:53): So creatives who have made their creativity, their business. So some designers starts at design firm. I used to hear from my clients when they were talking about their competitors, they would say, Oh, they're a really good firm, but they don't do strategy. Meaning they're not as smart as we are. Right. And so I started asking what strategy and people were just absolutely flummoxed by the question. So the answer is, tend to coalesce around a plan. Well, let's strategy is a plan. It's a detailed plan. Okay. So strategy is the plan. No, no, it's more than a plan. It's a really smart plan.Jonathan (03:35): It's a really smart piece that I think people get hung up on. Like what does really smart mean?Blair (03:39): Yeah. And then strategic as a modifier when you're positioning your firm we're a strategic design firm. Okay. What does that mean? Well, it means we're smart. It means we do the strategy. What strategy it's planning. Okay. So strategy is a plan. No, no, no. So we ended up in this circular discussion.Jonathan (03:59): Right? Right. So w the ones that, so a couple things to just chime in and kind of pile on there. I hear a lot of people use the word strategy incorrectly, which is different than defining it wrong. Cause I think if I asked the very same people to define strategy, they would say something like it's knowing what not to do or same, same with you. It's like a really smart plan. But I hear, I hear like a different, I hear people just use the word in the wrong place. Like people ask me like, what's a good SEO strategy or what's a good email marketing strategy. And what they're really asking for is tactics. And, you know, and they're asking about something extremely low level, they're looking for tips like tips and tricks on how to use drip more efficiently or something, or how to use social media more effectively.Jonathan (04:49): And you might, and some of those things would come out of an overall, like a higher level strategy. And, you know, based on the strategy, they're going to be tactics that are aligned or misaligned with the strategy, but they don't, but they have a tendency to just use the word synonymously with tactics, which is always something that I makes me nervous for them. Because if they, if they think that, you know, what, you know, like picking a time of day to tweet is a strategic thought process, then I'm like, okay, let's we need to have a conversation here.Blair (05:22): Well, Oh, so we're going to have to unpack both of these words, strategy and tactics, because, you know, I, the more I learn about it, the more I see there, isn't really a universal universal definition. And there are three definitions that I've heard that I like. And I remember I don't, I didn't go back and look it up. I remember liking yours. So there would be, there's probably five ones that I've heard that I've liked. And the three that there are three that I've held onto. And the, and the most recent one is one that really challenges some traditional ideas of what strategy might be. So what's, you've got a, you've thought about this question. What's your definition of strategyJonathan (06:03): A bit long, but I can't, I can't make it shorter and not lose something I think is meaningful. So, so from memory it's, as strategy is a high, a concise high-level approach to achieving an objective that applies strengths, your strengths against some things, weaknesses in a surprising way.Blair (06:23): Yeah. So there are a lot of keywords there, so I've thought of high level. Yeah. What else did you have? It's a high level, concise and high level, high level and put, goingJonathan (06:35): For achieving an objective. So that, that's the most important, like to me that's the, the most straightforward piece of it. It doesn't give you any direction, but it does say that it's gotta be, it's gotta be short. It's gotta be clear. It's gotta be high level. It's not a list of things to do. It's an approach to it critically to achieve an objective. So if you don't have an objective, there's no strategy. You can't have a strategy without an objective. So to me, any strategy meeting would, or, you know, discussion or thought process would start with what are we trying to achieve? And then how can we do that? It like, what's the approach that we could take that would apply strength to weakness in a surprising way.Blair (07:16): I also like the word concise, the idea that you can explain it succinctly. My first definition that I, I cobbled together from a few different that I found and I liked. And the bulk of it, I actually read on Wikipedia is this strategy is an idea that describes a journey to a position of advantage. So the idea follows your point about being concise. You need to be able to sum it up very succinctly and describes a journey. What I mean by describes a journey is you can easily tactics where the steps, if you see tactics as the steps in the strategy, and maybe I haven't actually thought too deeply by the word tactics, but tactics are the steps to implementing the strategy are implied or easily inferred. And then position of advantage is the, you know, the objective, the competitive the competitive game that you're hoping to achieve. So I really like that definition of yours. Do you want to say it one more time? Just for my benefit?Jonathan (08:27): Sure. So a concise high-level approach to achieve an objective or achieving an objective by applying strengths against weaknesses in an unsafe, in a surprising way.Blair (08:37): Yeah. Yeah. And then surprising is another important word. And I think I hadn't thought about that, but there's a tenant of systems thinking I think, or information systems that I'm trying to think of the author of this. And you know, all of the big names are escaping me, but they'll come to me. That information is surprise, no surprise, no information. I really liked the idea that there's something surprising there. I'm not, I wonder if that's defensible, I really like it, but I wonder if it's survived scrutiny.Jonathan (09:13): So in my blog post about this, I do say that that last piece, the surprise piece is potentially optional in a situation where it's not as competitive. So you've got a, you could imagine having a strategy where you don't have to communicate it to anyone. It's just you know, my objective is to, I don't know get my garage clean and the strategy I'm going to use is is instead of going through everything, you know, the big picture strategy is I'm just going to Chuck everything and okay, okay. What does that mean? You know, and then you you'd have tactics versus, you know, I'm going to sell everything or versus, you know, just like us, but this is kind of, it's kind of, it becomes like not meaningless, but strategy at that level. It becomes less important, I guess when there's not some kind of competitor, you know what I mean?Jonathan (10:12): So if there is some kind of competitor, whether that's another client or, you know, it's like a war situation, I feel like the surprise, every, every strategy that I would look back on always had that element of surprise that made it really made it instantly genius, where you're like, wow, that might not work. Of course, because strategy is a leap of faith. Like if you knew it was going to work, it's not a strategy. It's like, you've got this objective. You could do five, five different strategies for achieving the objective, you know, frontal assault, guerrilla, warfare, very different strategies. And then the tactics are gonna either align or not align with the chosen strategy. So when it's, when it's, when the S when the stakes are high, I think that surprise piece is pretty important when the stakes are low, maybe it's optional. It probably is optional.Blair (11:02): Yeah. I w I'm trying to think of example. So I've written I'm a big fan of Ben Thompson who writes this strategically. I was listening to him the other day on his podcast. Talk about the, I think it's fair. A fair child. Fairchild semiconductor is in a conversation about Intel, but when they said, okay, we're going to, we're going to go to market with these chips at a dollar, a piece or whatever the price was way be way below the market price, or even their cost at the moment. So the strategy is we're going to sell so cheaply. We're going to drive the volume way up. That's going to drive production efficiencies. Eventually we will be able to produce this at a profit, and we will just dominate the market. And that's exactly what happened. And that's Anne Thompson was talking about when he announced this at some conference, everybody in the room just had this audible reaction. Whoa, that's surprise. And that was a dominant strategy that changed the field.Jonathan (12:01): Yeah. The example I use is that that is fictional obviously, but the star Wars, the original star Wars movie, the objective was to blow up the death star. The strategy was to send an absurdly small force to sneak through their defenses and explode a critical vulnerability. And the tactics were all the things that they know. So like as, as Luke is flying through the, you know, the tactics would be things like, you know, the leaders will go into the trench and the rest of the each team will flank them and try and keep the tie fighters off and shoot the ground cannons so that the leader can go in and do the thing. So every time they're making a decision about which way to fly or how far apart the spaceships should be, those are all tactical decisions. And they're going to change constantly in response to feedback from the situation it's normal for tactics to change a lot. It's not normal. If your strategy is changing a lot, like when Luke shuts off his targeting computer, that's a tactical decision. It was not a strategic shift. He didn't, he didn't make a strategic change. The, the objective and the strategy remained the same, but he just, you know, changed his mind about exactly how he was going to execute it.Blair (13:11): The objective look, the desktop strategy is put a shot into the exhaust port and the tactics are all of these things and him making a decision to shut off the nav and use the force. That's the tactical a moment that's a tactical decision made in the moment in pursuit of the strategy. Right.Jonathan (13:27): But I would stress one thing about the strategy though. So like they could have had a full frontal assault on the death star with all of their, all of their forces and just,Blair (13:35): No we're talking about seriously because star Wars, Israel, this is not a fish oil example. Go on. Okay.Jonathan (13:41): Exactly. I think we're both around that age where it was real. But yeah, I think the surprise and the surprise piece is that like you, it's insane to send X wings or after the death star, it's like certifiably bonkers. But they're there, they could have tried to shoot from the moon and hit the exhaust part. It would have been just as crazy, or they could have sent their entire force and try and overwhelm them. So like, so yeah, so the exploit, the critical vulnerability, but with, but the S the real piece of the strategy that's interesting to me is that they chose to use just an absurdly small force to sort of sneak in versus a frontal assault or some ground, some attempt to send something from the ground.Blair (14:26): Now, let me back that into my definition of strategy, which is an idea that describes a journey to a position of advantage, position of advantages. The death star is blown up, right? The idea is we, we exploited it through the vulnerable place, the exhaust port. And then the, basically we, we, we have to, we have shoot a laser cannon or whatever it is, or not a candidate, but we have to put a shot into the exhaust port. And from that, you can kind of infer a bunch of different tactics that might be appropriate.Jonathan (15:02): [Inaudible] Yeah. Yeah. The tactics almost imply themselves with the strategy is good.Blair (15:08): All right. Now, so I think the word strategy, I believe I've looked it up in years past, but I have a great memory. It's just short. I believe it's about origins. I believe so, too. Yeah. Yeah. So it's almost always like, so the the desktop is a great example. But then we move it into a business context. I think things start to change a little bit, because my next, just speaking chronologically in terms of the definitions of strategies that I've really embraced, the next one I like is Michael Porter's, which is from Harvard business school, who says, strategy is the answer to the question, how are we going to become and remain unique?Jonathan (15:53): Oh, that's really good. There's this, there's a danger in that one though, because it, the how it doesn't say anything about concise. So like the, how will often be misinterpreted as a detailed plan, which I don't think is strategy, but yeah.Blair (16:07): Yeah. Well, it's going to get even worse when I get to the third definition, because we're definitely going in the anti concise direction.Jonathan (16:15): I do like that one though. I just think there's a lot of room for misinterpretation.Blair (16:19): Yeah. So when I think of like we've got a fair amount of overlap, or at least a little bit of overlap in our, in our, in the audiences that we serve creative and tech and the like, there's, you know, they're all kind of merging together and correct me if I'm wrong, but yeah. In the world that I serve creative professionals, what does it mean to be creative? Creativity is effectively the ability to see it's not the ability to write or draw it's the ability to bring a novel perspective to a problem. So creative people, and I mean, include all people who are creative and most entrepreneurs are creative, right? They are. Because that is their superpower is effectively solving the problem. They haven't previously solved. They have this positioning problem. They'd like to position, position their firms to be really, really broad so that they're able to solve all kinds of problems for all kinds of businesses.Blair (17:17): So that's one of the fundamental issues that we get to. So this that I'm dealing with in a, in an advisory basis, there are a lot of poorly positioned, greater firms. Now it's getting up getting a lot better as internet search strive. Some very specific searches. People are looking for very specific types of firms. So most firms have responded, but it's in the nature of that creative person to really broaden out their positioning. And I want to come back to this, this connection between positioning and strategy, it's effectively the same thing, but back to Michael Porter's idea, how are we going to become and remain unique? The creative business, the big challenge for decades of the creative business has been lack of uniqueness because everybody is effectively saying, well, we're creative problem solvers. Bring us your problem. We haven't solved before. And that was kind of the stake. They put it in the ground or didn't put in the ground,Jonathan (18:08): Right? Yeah. And like, all of their marketing materials are like, you know, we're smart people who solve hard problems and it's like, okay, but that's what everyone's saying. So, and you, and they may know internally that they have some different process, you know, like, you know, this firm might know that they have a better process than that from cause they used to work at the other firm and now they work at this firm. Yeah. There needs to be a meaningful difference, a difference that is meaningful to the buyer, a difference that the buyer understands, which is perhaps something that's much more high level. It almost certainly is something more high level than, than your internal process or how smart your people are, what your hiring process is. Yeah. So the difference and I do agree. Positioning is extremely strategic. I think there there's tons of overlap there between those two things. And they're to the point where it's almost effectively the same thing in a business context.Blair (18:59): Yeah. I think in if, if we have time, I'd like to come back to that and unpack the definition of positioning versus strategy and see where, where we get kind of tripped up. So, so for, for my audience of creative firms, I really like Michael Porter's definition because there is a lack of trying to be truly meaningfully unique among what I would call the creative professions, advertising and design.Jonathan (19:25): Well, you could argue that that that's being unique is one strategy. You, there could be another story.Blair (19:32): I would say that is your strategy. Your strategy is how are you going to be unique?Jonathan (19:37): Okay. Fair enough. Because the, the uniqueness could be that we're the low cost solution and that's your base. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. I see that. Okay. Like you're a generalist, but you're unique in the sense that you're the low cost option.Blair (19:50): Yes. It's not a desirable position, but if you have a production advantage, you've invented the logo making machine. Exactly. that's a, that's a strategy. That's a position in the marketplace.Jonathan (20:02): Yup. Yeah. Or you build a SAS that does this thing that, that now you don't need designers anymore, or you build, you build Upwork or 99 designs or something.Blair (20:11): Yeah. Now do you want to get into the paradigm shattering definition of strategy that will just stress everything we've talked about so far? Yeah. That's my favorite sounds great. So I'm going to have to read this. This was sent to me from a couple of clients of mine a few years ago. And this also comes from Harvard business school. Ken Andrews strategy is a stream of decisions over time, which reflect the goals of the firm and the means by which the firm achieves those goals. So when I remember sitting in a restaurant having dinner, my wife and I, and a couple one from Australia, one from New Zealand sitting there talking about strategy and they had met at Harvard business school and they dropped this point on me. And I said, well, wait a minute. But based on that definition, strategy can only be determined in hindsight because it's a stream of decisions. And they said, yes, exactly.Jonathan (21:14): Yeah, no, that is, I fundamentally disagree with that. Yeah,Blair (21:19): I think. And I haven't. So this definition has been quoted in a couple of books. One's called aligning the stars. I forget the gentleman's name. I haven't read it yet. I've lived through it. And I've since seen it out there in the world a few times particular, particularly from professionals who have attended Harvard. So it's definitely a Harvard business school definition. And one of the things I like about this is it's really easy to say what our strategy is, but most declarations of strategy are just or so aspirational than never pulled off. So to me, this is a really pragmatic, almost cynical look at what strategy is. So you could, you could summarize it by saying strategy. Isn't what you say, it's what you do. That's not the full definition, but that would be part of their implied definition would be strategy is really the decisions that you've made over time.Jonathan (22:27): No, that, to me, that that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept to me. I mean, when you first were saying it, I was thinking that, okay, maybe they're using that to encompass both the, the, the, the, definitely the creation of the strategy or the selection of the strategy and the execution of it over time. But then you went farther and it was more like how you summarize it, which is that you can only see what your strategy was in retrospect, which is like the laziest possible approach. I could imagine. It's like, why not? I mean, like, why even talk about it then? Like, just do whatever you want whenever you want. Like, how would you align an organization around that? I mean, it's kind of like, that's kind of like saying let's just assume that they, they believe that there's such a thing as objective and that, and, and even let's go a step further.Jonathan (23:17): This is probably unlikely in the absence of a strategy or preset strategy. Let's just say that the entire organization is aligned on the objective. Highly unlikely. If you don't, if you're operating in a definition of strategy, like you just described, but let's just say everybody is aligned on the objective. That would mean that everyone would be using different, decide on their own strategy. Everyone would have their individual strategy for achieving that objective. And if you don't have the same strategy, then the tactics that people are using are going to be stepping on each other's toes. They're gonna be pulling every, you know, one inch in every direction. There'll be no alignment whatsoever. Even if you have the same objective to be like, let's pull up the star Wars idea again. Okay. Objective, blow up the death star. Everybody do whatever you want. It's like, doesn't make any sense. So I think categorically reject that definition.Blair (24:14): I like how provocative it is. I like how it forced me to think about things. I like your retort to it. It reminds me of a couple of other provocative lions and I forget, was it Eisenhower? One of the U S presidents said and I'm paraphrasing plans are useless. Planning is priceless.Jonathan (24:35): Yeah. That's, that's good. But it doesn't mean there's no strategy. Yeah.Blair (24:40): It, another one of the strategies, models and a model is a view of a view of the world, how the world works or even not the greater world, but like there's a model for how we teach sales, training a model for how it works. So the line is all models are wrong. Some are useful. Yeah. So I think in the spirit of those two statements I think you can apply that spirit to Andrew's definition of strategy, which brings us to a related topic of what is strategic planning.Jonathan (25:18): Okay. Yeah. So let's slow down a little bit, cause there's some good stuff in there. So talk about how much time do we have. I'm not sure, but a while. So the Eisenhower quote that a plan is useless planning is priceless. The plan is what happens after you pick a strategy plan is the tactics. So that should change. And that's why it's like, you know, it, it is useless like on contact with the enemy of the plan is just not gonna work. Like, you know, I like my Mike Tyson's quote, everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face. Yeah. True. Absolutely true. But that doesn't mean that there's no strategy. You just have to adjust your tactics to the reality of the situation. But without a strategy, you won't know what tactics to pick, which, which gets to like a question I have written down. Maybe we could hold off or do it now, but why, why is a strategy important? Like who cares? Why not? Why not have no strategy? And I think the answer is you tell me what you think. I think the answer is it's what allows us to, to distinguish an opportunity from a distraction.Blair (26:23): Oh yeah. That's a great definition. Great answer to that question. It's a really important question. I was hoping we were, we would get to it, but I haven't, I haven't thought about it too deeply. Look, why do we even do a strategy? It seems well, it's obvious you need to do a strategy. Well, whyJonathan (26:40): Why? Because, because everyone has limited time and money. So if you could do everything then yeah. Eventually, you know, infinite monkeys are gonna, you know, type up the works of Shakespeare, but you don't. So you've got an, especially in a competitive situation, a zero sum situation where someone's going to win and someone's going to lose. You don't have a lot of time. You probably don't have a lot of money or other resources. So you have to F you have to decide what actions to take that are going to be the most effective. And if you don't have a strategy, you can't tell them apart. So you literally don't know what to do and everything. And in a, in a less high stakes situation where you've got, you know, I worked with a lot of solo preneur developer types, that everything seems like an opportunity, like a, you know, a lead comes through and it's like, should I take it? Should I not take it? And it's like, well, it depends. What's your objective. And what's the strategy you're using to get there. I can't answer that question until I know what your objective and strategy are. And if you, if you don't have a strategy every time somebody says, we'd like you to speak at our conference, you say yes, until you're until your time is completely spoken for Susan.Blair (27:47): Perfect. Because you, we were having this conversation on Twitter and you said, come on my podcast and talk about this. And I said, I'm being ruthless about these. So I'm not going to do it this year. We can do it next year. And this is next year. And then I'm still trying to be almost as ruthless, but soar. This is a Monday or Monday morning staff meeting is at eight 30. By the time I arrived at that staff meeting, I had already had three meetings at seven, seven 30 and eight on opportunities to speak somewhere. And, and then in the staff meeting on the issues list, it's like, okay, I've had these three conversations. I have another one tomorrow morning. Like help me. What, how do we decide? Which of these are worth like I'm supposed to be doing? You know, we have our, I wouldn't call it a strategy for the year, but we have the, our objective for the year. I know what I need to get done this year. Here it is. It's February. I know. And these things are opportunities in a way, but the fundamental question are, is, are they distracting us from the objective and the strategy or the answers are not there, there are benefits. It's absolutely. So I love, can you say that again? It helps us to distinguish between an opportunity and a distraction. Yeah.Jonathan (29:09): That's what, that's, what a strategy is for two, two distinct it's like litmus test, does this align with strategy or not? And the strategy is automatically gonna, you know, the idea of the strategies to automatically lead to the, not automatically the idea is that it's your bet on the most effective way to achieve the outcome, given your constraints. So, so the outcomes baked into the strategy, you know, it needs to exist first. You need to know what your annual goals are or whatever. And then, okay, what's the strategy for doing that and that you, the litmus test for the billion decisions you're going to make between now and December 31st about how to spend your time and money. And without that strategy, you'll spend all your time and your money, like every opportunity that every, every thing that comes through will look like an opportunity. And you'll just, you'll just spend all of your resources on it. Cause you won't know what to say no to.Blair (30:01): Yeah. And that saying no is so vital, right?Jonathan (30:06): Yeah. Yeah. And which leads to all the like Steve jobs quotes, like, you know, good design is saying no to a thousand things or, you know yeah.Blair (30:13): Warren buffet, the difference between successful people and really successful people is really successful. People say no to almost everythingJonathan (30:25): [Inaudible] at one time. So at a I don't know where I saw this, but I think Charlie Rose was interviewing buffet and buffet pulled it in and he asked buffet to like, you know, could you show me the calendar, your, your pocket calendar that you showed me before, the, the interview. And he just, just like empty. It was completely empty. And I was like, that's my goal. When I saw that, I was like, yup, that's what I want. Empty calendar.Blair (30:51): So when you're starting out and you have an empty calendar, your goal isJonathan (30:55): Right. Right, right. Yeah. But so that's, I mean, I don't know if you're a Derek Sivers fan, but he just put up, released a book called heck yes or no, or hell yeah. Or no. And it's, it's about that. There's a F there's a stage at the beginning. He's a, he has a music background, music, performance background as do I. And there's a stage where you hustle and you take every, you say yes to everything. And then that works. Cause you're just clueless and you're young and you, you can live on pizza and couches and just sleep on the couch, eat the pizza, not the other way around. And when the, the time comes that it, or like when you get somewhere and things, you're getting inbound, essentially you're getting inbound leads. Instead of you doing all outbound, you're starting to get inbound leads and you're buried.Jonathan (31:42): Then it's time to start thinking like, okay, I'm only going to say yes to the things that are a hell. Yeah. And I'm going to say no to everything else. And it's sort of a lazy way to I'm lazy is the wrong word. It's sort of like a, it's an easy way. It's a, it's like a simple to understand way, but he's like, he's like has not regrets, but he I've heard him say on podcast many times that people misunderstood that they started using the hell. Yeah. Or no thing before they were actually there, you know, use it at the beginning. Like, like they're, they're the, pre-Madonna, they're the prize. And everyone's like, okay, screw you, you know, fine. But if you, once you're in demand, then, then you know, it's like, okay, to maybe clear your calendar a little bit. But until that time, I think you'll know when you get, you know, when you get there, it's like, you know, conferences are, are emailing you, Hey, could you come speak at our conference then at a certain, you know, like, well, how do I decide if I should say yes or not?Blair (32:40): Here's a, here's a bit, it's more than a line, but it's, most of it comes from Dan Sullivan, founder of strategic coach. And some of it comes from somewhere else. It might be Derek Sivers, but I forget where I cobbled it together from two different sources. There are two levels of success in business. The first level you get there through what you're talking about, hard work and saying yes to everything. So those are the two tools that you use to get to the first level of success. Hard work, you work your off and you say yes to everything that comes your way. And I say that to my kids. It's like at your age, just say yes to everything, work your off. Outwork. People say yes to everything, but the second level of success, there are different tools. And you have to down the first tools and the longer you've been at the first level of success, the harder it is to put those tools down.Blair (33:30): So you have to put down effort and staying yes to everything, and you have to replace them with risk and saying no to everything, almost everything, Warren Buffett's quote. So right. At some point, your, your income, you want it to be detached from effort. And so you want to look for well, fundamentally it's it's risk. It's like, where do we take some? And there are different types of risks, but Peter Drucker said in business, all profit is derived from risk. And then the idea of saying no to everything, that's the Derek Sivers point of like, hell yeah. Or no.Jonathan (34:06): Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And, and Steve jobs about good design. It's like, you have to say no to a million things. So I w what about risk? Wasn't the, probably isn't the word I would have chosen there. I would have chosen leverage, but I suppose creating leverage is a risk because it it's it's an investment in your future and it might not work, but it also reminds me of the, the main subject here, which is strategy. A lot of people when I'm working with coaching students, and they'll say like, well, what should my strategy, like were considering a couple of different strategies let's say to achieve this objective there, you know, one to three year business goals or whatever, whatever they want to do, whatever impact they want to have. And, you know, there's different strategies, different ways to approach it. And they'll say, well, which one should I do?Jonathan (34:50): Like, what they're really asking is which one's definitely gonna work. And that's what they want to know now. They're like, well, any of them could work in any of them could not work. You just, at certain point, it's a leap of faith. It might not work if it's definitely gonna work. First of all, that doesn't exist. Or if it does exist, that's not strategy. Or the objective is too easily achievable for it to be interesting. So I suppose if there's something there's something that happens with a strategy that, that I think a lot of almost like prevents it from sinking in to someone's mind. Like they could be listening to this and being like, I'm not getting it. I'm not getting, I'm not getting it. And sometimes the resistance to that absorption is that they can't imagine a Bulletproof it's like, cause that doesn't exist. Like if your objective is, especially if it's a competitive, if especially if it's like a zero sum competitive, we win, you lose type of situation. There's not a guaranteed way. It's a re it's the risk that you're talking about. It's like, you need to take this risk. You bet that this is the right strategy. And maybe it won't work. You know? So I don't know if that, I'm not sure how those things tie in, but it feels,Blair (36:03): Yeah. Well, when you're talking about business owners and you, you get into these conversations, you realize some people have started their own business and there would be better off as employees. They don't have the appetite for risk. So you can take what I said, which is risk and saying, no, you can substitute the word. I think you can subject to the word innovation for risk. And to me, I haven't, I've thought about this just not super deeply, but to me, innovation is this combination of creativity. So the ability to see an opportunity, you can see something and some people just suffer from lack of good ideas, not very many, but some do. So I see the opportunity and then risk. I'm willing to leap. And those two things combined to me, that's a pretty good those are the ingredients of innovation. So I think you can think about it that way, but there is no innovation without risk and there is no innovation without waste.Blair (37:00): Exactly. So this idea that somebody is looking for a Bulletproof strategy, it's that they want a guarantee. I remember back to Dan Sullivan, founder of strategic coach. I was in that coaching program for three years and we were doing so once a quarter, you meet with 40 entrepreneurs for a day. You're discussing all these things and they have frameworks. And one day we were doing an exercise around risk. And I had this realization that, Oh, as an entrepreneur, I had the sense, I was still kind of early. I felt myself as early in my entrepreneurial journey. And I had the sense that, okay, I'm taking a bunch of risks now, but at some point the risk goes away. Then I had this realization that no, I'm all in all the time. Right. For the rest of my life. Yeah. And I was immediately horrified like, okay, at what point do you lie down?Blair (37:55): And when do we get to rest on my laurels? When you pick the fruits of your labor? Not that you don't when you're yeah. When do you get to rest on your lawyer, lawyer, laurels, and just have the money flowing without you like constantly living three to five years in the future and making decisions about where out there. And I realized I two realizations back to back. And the first one I was horrified, I realized never, you never get to do this as an entrepreneur. And that lasted, I brought that up and we talked about it and that lasted about two or three minutes. And I realized the second realization was I would have it no other way. Right.Jonathan (38:33): Exactly. That's how I get it. IfBlair (38:36): You're, if you don't have that appetite for risk, if you're not willing to be all in, in that way where your fate is in your own control, get a job.Jonathan (38:45): Yeah. Right. I mean your, your post no exit, I think it's called. Yeah. Yeah. That I had a F I mean, this is off topic, but I had when I read that I was like cheering. I'm like, yeah, exactly. I think your line was like, I'm gonna die with my boots on. And I was like, yeah, why would I retire my life rules?Blair (39:05): Like never retire.Jonathan (39:06): No, never not gonna, not gonna do it. The, and, and I dunno, I suppose it's off topic. I would love, I would love to have a long chat about that. But that sort of like the idea of just the whole notion of, you know, working until I'm 60 or whatever, and then retiring to a hammock. Like, I don't know. I like what I do. It's I dunno. I just dig it. Like, why would I want to stop?Blair (39:34): We're not wearing out our bodies here at Jonathan typists.Jonathan (39:38): Yeah. I just write all the time. I love it. So I did have one, one counter-argument to that. I spoke with a guy named John Warrillow. He's been on the podcast a fewBlair (39:47): Times. I'm a big fan of his books. Yeah. Yeah.Jonathan (39:50): And so he, he convinced me he injected a thought into my head that I had never had before. And he was like, cause, cause we were on the, he was on the podcast and I was, the interview was about built a cell and creating products and services and, and that sort of thing. And he was like, he was like, the things he's all about like selling the best, valuing the business, creating more value in the business and then selling it and, you know, keep on doing that. And I was like, well, that's not, I'm never going to do that. But everything that you're describing increase, like anything that would increase the value for a buyer is going to increase the value for the owners. So it's still valid advice. And then he was like, well, you know, you could get, he was like two things could happen.Jonathan (40:33): That would change your mind about that. And I was like, Oh yeah. What health and something even bigger, like you want to do something even bigger. Yeah. So he was like, so if you, if something like that happened and that could happen, like I could see that happening where it's not that I would stop working, but I might want to pivot into something that's a higher level or something like that. Cause like at that point, are you just going to let your old business die? Would you rather sell it? And I was like, well, I would, I wouldn't want it to die. Which would mean someone would have to buy it. So it was like, Oh, okay. That broaden my,Blair (41:05): And I'll add two more considerations. So I have a friend who founded a consulting firm and he brought along the next gen. He was, he saw it as his responsibility as CEO should to bring on the next generation of kind of leadership. And he mentored these young people. And at some point they came to him and said, we want to buy the firm. And he realized he had an obligation to sell it to them. And I, I'm not sure that I would have felt the obligation, but I understood his of obligation. And so he sold it to them and went to do something else. So I can see that. And I can also see, like in my own business, I think of what we're trying to accomplish at win without pitching, which is to change the way creative services are bought and sold the world over.Blair (41:49): I can see at some point some somebody coming to me and saying, Blair, sell me the business. Let us bring to you the scale that you don't currently have. But you can continue to be involved doing the things that you love to do. I don't need to run a training company. So if at some point in the future, somebody came to me and said, no, look, we can help you with the, with the objective, like a bigger impact around the world. And we can take away from you all the things that there may be some days, maybe some days you don't and you can just continue to create content like Seth Goden just did this with a Kimbo. And if you listen to his podcast, I had to back it up and listen to it over again. And I thought, that's the smoothest. I've never heard anybody ever deliver the fact that they had just sold the company and where you almost didn't hear it.Blair (42:45): And clearly he is continuing to develop curriculum and content. He's just not running a training organization. So to me, I can see that too. So while it's a great mission and I never sell never retire, absolutely never retiring. Yeah. But even Michael Gerber and the E-Myth E-Myth he says, build and run your business. Like you're going to franchise it, even though you never will. What he means by that is put all the systems and processes in place. Yeah. And I think for any product ties service business, it makes sense that you build it for potential future sale. But my audience of creative and marketing firms, 90 greater than 95% of them are customized services, businesses that don't easily sell. In fact, my friend and podcast, co-host David C. Baker says the odds of selling a firm like that are one in 400. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of nuance there, but I appreciate that postJonathan (43:49): Well, to bring it back to the strategy subject is all of the, we're talking about a lot of decisions and like worldviews and missions and, and our vision for whatever, like the impact that we want to have as all of those, like a million little decisions and tactics and possibilities and all of those things like it's, it gets overwhelming in absence of a strategy. If you have a strategy and you've got the discipline to stick to it, then a lot of these things sort of a lot of like like a majority of them probably will just evaporate. Cause they'll just be like, Oh, that's, that's a distraction. Those are just distractions. And, and people are good at filtering out distractions. We're constantly bombarded with the problem is when some of them don't seem like distractions, but as soon as you know, that this stuff is a distraction, you can shut it out pretty easily.Jonathan (44:38): But I wanted to loop back to something you mentioned earlier, which was the term strategic planning and, and point people to a resource it's a book called good strategy, bad strategy by Richard Rumelt, which is largely the source of what I use as a definition of strategy. It's a little bit bastardized, but you know, the thing about surprise, I think that comes from him and, and it's, I think it's really, really good, but strategic planning is like, I mean, I think Ellen white says strategic planning is an oxymoron. You know, it's like it's yes. Plans will come out of a strategy, but, but acting like acting like your strategy is a plan is, is what room out would call bad strategy? That's bad strategy. That's like,Blair (45:26): Well, I love that. I can, if I hear those two words together, I just rolled my eyes. My reaction is you don't know what you're talking about. And I, and that's, that's just like a guttural reaction. That is, that is not a highly thought through thing, but I love what you just said. You know, how about you just come up with a strategy that you can articulate in a sentence, and then from that we can do some planning and let's keep these two things separate from each other. Right,Jonathan (45:58): Right. Yeah. There's another thing that he talks about. I think it's, I think it's the same book, but another kind of bad strategy is, is is one that has no risk to bring, to bring up risk again. So like, like our strategy is going to be to have the world's best customer service. It's like, well,Blair (46:16): That's like, that's a dream or goal.Jonathan (46:19): Yeah. And it's, and it's like, and it's not there's no surprise. It's not risky. Anybody else would probably like, you know, no end of other companies might say the exact same thing. It's not, it's not an application of a strength against a weakness in a surprising way. It's, it's like a duh, you know, like that's, that's like table stakes for running a business,Blair (46:42): But could you turn that? Like if we took that one as a case study, could we, could we turn that into a strategy or infer a strategy from it? LikeJonathan (46:51): Maybe, maybe a market, maybe a marketplace that is aggressively anti customer service. Yeah. So if there's, if there's like, you know, like there's a sandwich shop near my house, that is like, well, it's like it's like the staff is like incredibly rude, like comically rude on purpose. And that's like, just part of the shtick. If every restaurant was like that, and then you were like, Oh, okay, we're going to are different. We're going to be the nice ones. So like there there's strategy, it's not a strategy. It's just a stick that they do. But, but we are going to here would be a strategy. We're going to have the worst customer service in the industry. Right. I'm not sure how that would help you, but that would be surprising. And it would certainly if for some reason that allowed you to cut your price by 10 X of what everyone else was charging, that might be interesting. So yeah, I could S I could see that happening. Like maybe there's an industry where customer service is a Bismal and that's like a, a strategic advantage or or maybe you, you flip it and say, we're going to have the worst customer service, or like, we're gonna have the worst. We want to have the worst Yelp reviews on the internet, something like that.Blair (47:58): What do you back to this word planning, what do you think listeners of this podcast should do with this information of this definition? These definitions of strategies and, yeah.Jonathan (48:09): I mean, everything starts with an objective. If you don't know what your objective is, you're dead in the water. If you're just like, if your objective is to like, pay the mortgage next month, like think a little bit bigger picture in that, have an objective, like, what's your mission or vision or purpose or impact that you're trying to make your big idea come up with something that is usually it's most helpful if it's other focused and not if it's outward, focused, not inward focused like your bank account numbers or something like that. It's not very, it goes like that. Aren't very instructive. It doesn't, it's like, Oh, you want to have a million dollars. But like, it doesn't really tell me anything. It rules out a lot of businesses, but it doesn't tell me it doesn't give me any direction as someone who is trying to coach you.Jonathan (48:48): So I would say, come up with, if you can, some sort of impact goal that is outwardly focused, focused, like an impact that you want to make let's. And if, if you have an easy answer to that, consider yourself lucky because most people don't. But if you could come up with some kind of objective and then S and then make a list of five, three to five possible, mutually exclusive strategies that are one sentence long that are all different high-level approaches to potentially achieving that objective and notice just, and then just like try on each of the different strategies. Like it's a suit. So just try on this strategy, what would the tactics be? If that was going to be my strategy, what are my blind spots? What would I have to get help with? What team members would I need to bring in and then try on the next strategy? What would that look like? What would that implementation look like? What would the action plan be for this strategy? Then go through it with all three to five of these different potential strategies. And I think it'll, it'll internalize how different tactics and strategy are and how they go hand in hand and how the having one strategy versus another strategy gives you this litmus test for, for distinguishing real opportunities from distractions.Blair (50:10): I know we've been at this almost an hour. No, we still haven't talked about too much about positioning versus strategy add, and maybe this is the topic of a future discussion. Where does the strategy and the business model begin? And I think of Alex Osterwalder's work, business model, canvas what's the relationship between strategy and the business model? ThatJonathan (50:40): Is a great question. I personally, I spend most of my time thinking about a specific business model, so I don't have a lot of, I don't have a lot of broad experience with like, like wide ranging types of businesses. Almost everybody I work with is it's like an expertise based business. It's usually one person or a small firm. So I, I would defer any, any information you have on that would be super interesting to me cause I, I kind of solved that problem by only working with one kind of business model. And I don't like the scaling with employees or like a contingency type model or marketplace models. I don't mess with any of that stuff.Blair (51:21): Yeah. And it's interesting when you, I looked into this recently in preparation of a podcast that David Baker and I did, and I'm not even sure if we'd got into it, but as part of the research there, isn't just like strategy there. Isn't kind of a universal agreed upon definition of what a business model is, but these things positioning how you position your brand. So Trenton Reese's book from, I think it was 81 positioning the battle for your mind. How do you, how do you place your brand in the mind of your customer relative to your competitors? That's positioning? So to me, positioning is when it comes to positioning a professional firm that is fundamental business strategy. It's the expression of like, what do we want them to think basically about us relative to these others? And then okay, what are the things that we need to do for us to be thought of that way? So that's tied to positioning, positioning, and strategy are related as, as business model as is our tactics and planning. Totally.Jonathan (52:29): Yeah. I agree. I think, I think positioning is always strategic, but I don't think a strategy is always positioning.Blair (52:37): Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's some pretty good progressJonathan (52:46): Now, now, now I'm like, I need to research business models, moreBlair (52:50): Antics episode. Exactly.Jonathan (52:54): Is there anything else we should tackle before we wrap up? I know you've sounds like you've already had a busy day, so you're probably looking forward to lunch or something like that.Blair (53:02): Well, I have to go get in that cold, like, and I'm swimming in the ice cold water,Jonathan (53:09): Better, better you than me and my friend.Blair (53:11): Right? Well, no, I think this is I suspect that the conversation will continue on Twitter and then maybe we'll reconvene again, either here or in some other forum to share what we've both kind of learned since today on the key subject of strategy and the related ones. I'll just throw out one last idea, but just one last thought read a book that has strategy and the title and my experience is the chances less than 50% that the author will offer an a definition of strategy, probably training, master strategy, and the fat smoker read that multiple times does not define strategy. There are lots of books on strategy that don't define it. Yeah. I believe that's true. It's something that as we, we it's like pornography, we know it when we see it.Jonathan (54:10): Yeah. It feels like there's a lot of snake oil out there to be honest, roommates is by far the best book I've ever read on it. It's okay.Blair (54:17): Familiar with it. I've heard it over the years. I've never read it. So when I get back to when my appetite for reading both strategy returns will be at the top of my pile.Jonathan (54:27): Yeah. Great. Well, thanks so much for joining me and the listeners today. Where should people go to find out more about all things BlairBlair (54:36): Win without pitching.com and I'm at Blair ends on the usual business, social media, Twitter, LinkedIn, and now clubhouse, I guessJonathan (54:46): I just signed up.Blair (54:48): See, by the time this goes to air, clubhouse will beJonathan (54:51): Probably gone. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, so talk about opportunity, distraction. So many people were like, you got to get on this, you got to get on this Blair and Chris are on it. You got to get on it. I was like, Oh, I'll go squat on my username, but I don't know. Anyway, we'll see. Maybe it'll be the next YouTube. I do. Like I do like audio as a format. SoBlair (55:13): While you have the voice for audio,Jonathan (55:15): I've got a face for it. I didn't say that. All right. Well, let's see folks, I guess that'll be it for this time. Maybe we can have Blair back again in the future. Let us know what you think is your favorite definition of strategy on Twitter. So Blair already shared his mine is at Jonathan Stark, of course. And we'll just see you next time. That's it for this time. I'm Jonathan Stark and this is ditching hourly. Bye. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

RevThink honcho Joel Pilger joins me to talk about how and why to consider fostering a community of clients. Joel's BioJoel Pilger helps great creatives run great creative companies. As a RevThinker, Joel has advised hundreds of creative firms based in 23 countries around the world. He is the host of the RevThinking Podcast as well as the host of regular QOHORT retreats and dinners for creative entrepreneurs in New York, Los Angeles, and London.Related Links Joel's website Joel's previous appearance on Ditching Hourly RevThinking Podcast QOHORT ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Positioning consultant Emily Omier shares her secrets for finding clients on LinkedIn without being an annoying spammer. Emily's Links Emily's articles: The New Stack Emily's podcast: The Business of Cloud Native Emily's blog: Positioning Open Source Emily's LinkedIn Profile ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Best selling author John Warrillow joins me to talk about what to do when you want to sell a SaaS.Talking Points Why buyers might pay a much higher multiple than normal for a SaaS The pros and cons of annual vs monthly subscription models How to know when to sell your SaaS What to do before you sell your SaaS Business brokers vs M&A professionals What to say when a potential buyer asks, “If your SaaS is so great, why are you selling it?” How to avoid “golden handcuffs” if hanging around is not for you John’s BioJohn Warrillow is the founder of The Value Builder System™, a simple software for building the value of a company used by thousands of businesses worldwide. Offered by a global network of independent advisors known as Certified Value Builders, The Value Builder System™ incorporates several diagnostic tools, including the Value Builder Score. Those businesses that achieve a Value Builder Score of 90 or greater are worth double the average-performing business.His best-selling book Built to Sell: Creating a Business That Can Thrive Without You was recognized by both Fortune and Inc. as one of the best business books of 2011 and has been translated into 12 languages. John is the host of Built to Sell Radio, ranked by Forbes as one of the world's 10 best podcasts for business owners.In 2015, John wrote another best-selling book, The Automatic Customer: Creating a Subscription Business in Any Industry. Prior to founding The Value Builder System, he started and exited four companies, including one acquired by a public company. He lives with his family in Toronto. You can follow John's work by signing up at BuiltToSell.com.Related Links: The Art of Selling Your Business by John Warrillow Built to Sell by John Warrillow John's website John's books John's first appearance on Ditching Hourly ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Author, podcaster, and coach Tripp Lanier joins me to talk about how to feel more strong, free, and alive. Tripp's BioTripp Lanier is a professional coach, author of This Book Will Make You Dangerous, and host of The New Man Podcast: Beyond the Macho Jerk and the New Age Wimp which — for over a decade — has been downloaded millions of times.Tripp's LInks The New Man Podcast This Book Will Make You Dangerous Tripp's coaching website TranscriptJonathan Stark (00:00):Hello, and welcome to ditching hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today I'm joined by special guest Tripp Lanier. Tripp! Welcome to the show.Tripp Lanier (00:07):Thanks, Jonathan. Appreciate the opportunity to talk.Jonathan Stark (00:10):I'm really excited about this. I absolutely loved your book and I want to talk all about that, but first, can you give the listeners a little bit of background on you, who you are, what you do, they might not have heard your name before or just in case they haven't?Tripp Lanier (00:22):Yeah well, most known these days as the host of the new man podcast, which has been publishing for over 13 years, we've had millions of downloads. We kind of started in the wild West days and but my main profession is I'm a coach and I work with primarily men, but forward-thinking men that are like, all right, I've done pretty well for myself, but is this really it, is it really just going to be about chasing money or measuring up or trying to prove something that I didn't get worked out in high school? And so these are guys that are wanting more meaning more alignment, not just in their work, but also in their personal lives and their relationships as well. So I do the work with those guys to really kind of break out of this mold and find the unique thing that that really is. They're like, okay, what am I really here to do or give or provide in my lifetime? And you know, confront the fears that get in the way there and then really start to implement that and then world, and in a way where you don't have to live in your car, my clients tend to do very well for themselves.Jonathan Stark (01:22):Yeah, there's so, so I didn't realize that the podcast had been going that long. I listened to a few episodes, but wow. That's amazing. Yeah. When did the book come out?Tripp Lanier (01:31):The book came out this past year. We're still in the promotion cycle for that. So it's, it's you know, with COVID and all of that kind of stuff, it's like, it's still fresh and brand new and a lot of people's minds.Jonathan Stark (01:41):Yeah, it's really good. I'm just going to go ahead, like right up front and say, folks should definitely read this book. It's it aligns with a lot of the things that listeners here are used to hearing me say particularly staying, getting away from the crowd, standing out from the crowd and not being just another, whatever you want to be. The one and only have something very specific and doing that feels really dangerous to people. It feels like they're taking a huge risk by doing something different and standing out. I suppose it's like an evolutionary thing where fitting in was the safety mechanism, but now it's like the polar opposite of what you'd actually want to do. So the book is the book is not only really useful, but it's hilarious. It's definitely dude oriented. Do, do you have, have you ever, has that caused a problem for you at all? I, I, I asked because one of the things that people tend not to want to do is niche down on any kind of subset. They want to be like a software developer. I can build software for anyone and everyone. And I think that's a bad thing. You obviously think that's a bad thing. Have you had any sort of backlash from focusing down primarily on men?Tripp Lanier (02:49):No. I mean, if you take a look at the world that I'm in and the personal growth, personal development realm, it's a field largely developed largely dominated by women. You know, this was, I mean, this was a field that Oprah really cultivated. And there, I remember being that person going to that section of the bookstore when we actually went to bookstores to buy books and it was like, there's nothing here for me. I'm a guy. And it's awesome that there's a lot of great books for women here, but there was nothing that spoke specifically for me. And so one of the main reasons why I wrote that book was I was like, okay, what's the book I wish I could have read 20 something years ago when I was starting to ask these deeper questions and starting to really get curious about life and what was really involved. And, and and so that was, that was the impetus for this book.Jonathan Stark (03:34):One of the things that I love about the book, first of all, I listened to the audio book, which you read. Thanks, goodness. Because I think it it's, it really, it feels like a missed opportunity to me when authors don't read their own books, especially in a place like, you know, in a, in a, in a space like this or dumb domain like this it's, it's like, you really want it. I don't know. It just makes so much more of a connection for some, especially for someone who does coaching. But what's hilarious about it is, you know, you're super honest in it. There's swearing and stuff. It's there's some, a whole just absolutely like laugh out loud. Funny examples. I'm thinking of like the, the the, the sweat lodge. I don't know if it was a sweat lodge, but it was like, okay, everybody take off their clothes and it's just hilarious, but it's, it's incredibly useful.Jonathan Stark (04:21):And the, the, the thing that I want to drill into a little bit is your ability to the role playing that you did in the book. So, so for the listener, there's a bunch of examples in the book where, where one of trips, I don't know if you call them students or clients, but clients they would have some sort of like, I don't feel it something's wrong. I don't know what's wrong. And listening to the way you unpack that was in every case, it was just mind blowing. I do coaching myself and, and with a lot of engineer mentality type of people and they, and when it comes to the stuff that's re really squishy stuff, I'm like, I'm out, I'm like not, not a shrink. I don't know how to go there. I don't know what questions to ask. So it was incredibly informative as a coach to listen to the way that you would ask those questions.Jonathan Stark (05:09):Can you, can you think of an example from the book where someone might come to you and say, I say something like, I dunno, man. Like something just doesn't feel right. You know, and they're like driving a Ferrari and they're ma you know, they're happily married and, you know, I think there was one word, you know, the guy was like totally happy with his wife or, or felt that way. And was just like, I don't know. And then you ask these series of questions that maybe you could go into a little bit and, you know, touch on the sort of three things that you know, people are looking for in their lives. It seems like almost like the primary colors of what you go after.Tripp Lanier (05:46):Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's a lot to unpack in that. You know, one thing that I've learned as a coach is that early on, as a coach, it was like, yeah, let's, let's really help people accomplish their goals, whatever they may be, those goals are always or had been at that time were always typically objective. They were things that we could measure. Right. That's, that's part of having a smart goal. Is that something that you could observe you could, you could measure? And what I found was that after a few months, you know, we, we, we finally accomplished this goal and my guy would feel good for a little bit. I mean, really just a little bit, maybe a day, maybe a week. And then he was kind of back into this certain state of mind and I was like, wait a second. That's not, we haven't transformed anything.Tripp Lanier (06:28):We're just, we've just leveled up, but we've carried all the same baggage with us. And so I realized that this makes this, coaching's not really fun when my clients are still staying stuck mentally and emotionally in these things. And so I really started to unpack what is it that we really want when we set a goal. And when I realized was that if we set a goal and we accomplished that goal and we still feel trapped or drained or isolated or bored, overwhelmed, and we, we screwed up, we missed the Mark, right? That no, no guys like, yes, this is it. This is exactly how I want to feel. I want to feel trapped and drained and isolated and stuck and all of this stuff. And it's like, okay, so then what does that mean? What are we, what what's, what does that mean? You know, the flip it around and well, instead of trapped, I want to feel free instead of drained.Tripp Lanier (07:14):I want to feel alive instead of isolated. I want to feel connected, deeply loved. I want to feel instead of border overwhelmed, I want peace of mind. I was like, Oh, okay. Well, what if we started to set goals that were in service of those intrinsic or interior experiences, these things that we, we want to feel, they can't necessarily be observed or measured, but they can be felt inexperienced. And so once I started doing that, then, then I can help a guy break down why he's not feeling okay. And this is where we come back to your original question, which is, I've got a lot of guys that from the outside, I look like they're kicking, that they've got the goals, you know, they've solved all this stuff and it looks really impressive from the outside, but something's off, something's missing. And if you were to ask them, Hey, are you fulfilled and go, Oh, know, I mean, maybe it's too vague, right.Tripp Lanier (08:05):So we can break it down. And I think what you heard in those conversations, I was break it down and say, well, let's go through, let's look at how, how is love in your life, right? How is this? And then, Oh, I got a lot of love. My kids are great. My wife and I are doing really well. That's all, that's all humming along. Okay, great. And lots of stability. Yeah. Lots of stability. Okay, great. Well, what about freedom? Do you feel like you've got flexibility in your life? Do you feel like you've got choice? Do you feel like you get to be who you really are and whatever you're doing? And it's like, Oh, well, maybe not. You know, I'm, I'm always at work or I'm always, my mind is always worrying about family or whatever. Okay. Interesting information. What about a lot? Do you feel alive and what you're doing?Tripp Lanier (08:39):Huh? Not really. I haven't felt alive since I was in my twenties. I haven't felt alive since I took my, you know, I got that first round of investment and, you know, we were able to launch ABC or whatever that thing was. And you start to break things down and said, okay, well, what can we do that would, that would be in service of more freedom, more alive in this, because that's really the doorway to this peace of mind that we say that we ultimately want. And then we can set some really smart goals and we can keep an eye on them as we go, instead of just putting our blinders on and saying achieve, achieve, achieve, or only look at the metrics, but never really check in with this dashboard that we've got in front of us that says, Hey, how am I feeling?Tripp Lanier (09:15):Am I feeling more free, more alive, more loved, more at peace as I go through my day to day life. So that's essentially what you probably, that you heard me breaking down in those conversations. And, and from that place, we can have a coaching conversation. Great. What are you going to do this week? Is there a conversation you got to have, or is it a thing you got to say no to? Or is there a bold thing that needs to be done with your brand or whatever those types of things are? And then I hold them accountable to that.Jonathan Stark (09:40):Yeah. I think one example was, you know one of your clients had a business partner and he was dissatisfied with arrangement. It had been going on for awhile and just never brought it up. Never discussed. It was thinking about buying him out and, you know, you kind of comment. Yeah. And you were like, well, have you talked to him about it? The answer is no. You know, and, and how do you ha but still that, like, it's sort of like, you had a nice sort of neat ball on it where it's like, yeah, I guess I should talk to them. And they went for a hike and had a talk in it and it went well. But do you have, do you have sort of tactics or approaches that people can use to get, it's going to sound stupid, but get them to do the thing that they know they need to do, but still can't get themselves to do so they're, they're still like, how do they, how do you walk them through the fear of having that hard discussion with a business partner or a spouse, or even a kid that, that you probably know maybe consciously know you need to do, or you should do, but you just can't make yourself do it.Tripp Lanier (10:47):I can, I use a salty language always. Okay. All right. Got it. So there's a, there's a technical term for this called dicking around. And we will Dick around to the degree that our system, right? Our, our system, our, our personal lives, our health, our relationships, our work we'll we'll allow it. Okay. Most of the time you can't coach a guy that is totally okay with dicking around. Like, he may say he doesn't like dicking around. He may listen to a podcast. He may, you know, go on a website and look at a coach, but he doesn't pull the trigger. And so it's really hard to coach those guys because they haven't reached this point where yet, where they're like, screw it. It's it's up to me. I've got to do something about this. And I think even Joseph Campbell, I don't know if he used this exact word, but he said, it.Tripp Lanier (11:33):There's that there's the pre it moment. And the post. It, moment. But that, it. Moment is so important where we recognize, Hey, this is up to me. My life is not infinite. My time is valuable. My energy is valuable. My experience of my life is valuable. I am in touch with a deeper why, and I think we can come back around to that, but I am in touch with a deeper way. This is not how I want to live my life, or this is not how I want to steer my business. And unless you're in touch with that stuff, then you are dicking around. You're just kind of putting out fires and you're allowed to just kind of stay in this fog that one day, you know, next month we'll probably get around to that or six months, or now it'd be the right time.Tripp Lanier (12:08):Or the perfect plan is going to fall out of the sky. Or, you know what? My business partner is going to read my mind and he'll take responsibility dicking around all dicking around. So I'm going to say that the person that's dicking around is not really coachable the guy who has said I'm done dicking around my life is more valuable. I'm in touch with a deeper why that that guy is coachable. And that doesn't mean he's not going to have resistance. We still work with that resistance and we go through it. But it is about coming back to that. Why so, what are we doing here is if we're still telling lies to ourselves, or we're still kind of living some fantasy, then you know, it's going to be really, really tough. But if we can poke through that fantasy and say, you know, I've been dicking around for two years, three years, five years, 10 years.Tripp Lanier (12:46):Some people have been tolerating so much and they're just, you know, it's like, what are you going to do? So I think, I think coming back to, I'm done dicking around. They've got to turn that corner on their own. And other than that, it's gotta be in touch with a really deep why, because otherwise taking action, making the phone call, having that conversation drawn up new documents, whatever that is just seems like a pain in the butt. And you'll default to the familiar fires that you're used to putting out on a day-to-day basis instead of taking those, those more necessary actions, even though they may not be very time or energy re you know, require a lot of time and energy that they just might require us to have a lot more courage.Jonathan Stark (13:24):All right. So tell me more about the deeper, why, how do you help people uncover that?Tripp Lanier (13:29):I think it's first, it's essential to get in touch with our mortality. And it's w it's a practice that I, I think it's, it's really important for us to, to just remember that our days are not finite. You know, as I talked to you now, there's someone close to my family in my family. That's struggling, you know, we will die this week, most likely. So there's a reminder that, that we're not, we don't have time to Dick around. And I think it doesn't mean we have to be in an urgent state or a frantic state or in any kind of scarcity, but I think it does wake us up. And I think that we can use our mortality to, to, as a sword, to cut through the and just say, is this really how I want to live? Spend time with people who have wasted their lives and what, and, and, and see their regret.Tripp Lanier (14:14):And it's like, is this really how I want to go about doing things? Most of the guys that I, that I see dicking around have not had some kind of initiation with death. They they're out of touch with the fact that they are going to die there. They're still young boys that believe that there's this next phase it's coming. And then they're going to have permission to really go for what they want in life. What I found is that the guys that really understand death or have had some kind of an experience of death in their lives, it's like, I'm not dicking around. I could go at any time and I want to feel aligned in my day. Now when my head hits the pillow tonight, I, I want to have a sense that, you know what I'm living my life. I I'm doing my best. I could do better share, but I'm my best. I'm not this time away. So I think that's a, that's a powerful place to start with a coaching client and to set that frame. And what that does is just keeps us from leaking energy. It sets a really tight container. So let's, let's, let's come from this place right off the bat. That makes you an extraordinary person though.Jonathan Stark (15:09):Does it map to age as much as I think it probably does?Tripp Lanier (15:16):I, I think it really is a perspective. I've met a lot of 45, 50 year old boys, and there's, it's just, but in what I mean by that is there's this sense of like, I don't really have to take responsibility. My wife will do it or work. I can just kind of plot along and then work will kind of work around me in default to something I don't really have to take the lead. And what I do, you'd be surprised how many people in quote leadership positions can run their businesses from that, that place where they're empowered to be that, that way. But yeah, it's not to do with age. It really is a frame of mind, if you think in terms of kind of this Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Th th these deeper questions lie at that top. So, you know, depends on where you are in that, that regard for a lot of us.Tripp Lanier (16:02):And I talk about this in the book, success as a form of survival, having a ton of stuff is a way that we are going to finally feel comfortable, safe, and accepted once. And for all. So we attach a number to that net worth zip code, whatever it might be. And we say, you know, once I get there, I'm good. I'll be fine. I will I'll survive. And we know it's that way, because we end up doing a lot of behaviors that are actually detrimental to us. We, it's not about getting stronger. We actually, we, we our health away. We our mental health away. We our community away. We do all the things that, you know, we live in places that were terrible crime and pollution and all this kind of stuff that there's not, there's not a rational argument that says, yes, striving for this type of success is makes me stronger.Tripp Lanier (16:51):It's really driven by this egoic self image thing. It's just, you know, this is where I'm going to finally feel safe and I'm not bagging on it, but I think it, it helps to understand what am I really striving for. So if we come back to that hierarchy of needs, it's, I need to be okay before I can even entertain some of these deeper questions. So that might happen for a younger person. They've, they've, they've had whatever, you know, insight that needs to happen. And they're starting to ask those deeper questions that happen for me in my mid twenties. But, but for others, it may not happen at all. Or it may, it may happen later on.Jonathan Stark (17:25):Yeah. I was a late bloomer. It probably didn't happen to me until I had kids, which is like early forties. So you talk more about getting stronger. That's a big theme in the book, a recurring theme in the book. Does this make me stronger? Do I feel stronger? It's kind of like a compass that you could use,Tripp Lanier (17:40):Right? Yeah. I think, I think most of us have just checked out of our interior world, right? We, we, we say, well, if I have this amount of money in the bank, I live here, I do this, I've got this title, then, then I'll be okay. But then we are experienced. Doesn't line up with the theory that we have in our mind. If I get to this place, then whether we realize it or not, there's that unconscious theory that I'm going to feel free. I'm going to feel alive. I'm going to feel connected and loved and deeply appreciated once. And for all, I'm going to have peace of mind. So we get to this, we might hit that Mark. And we say, Hey, something's off. I must need more. Right. So we, we look, we look at our behaviors and we look at the things that we're doing on a daily basis, and then say, okay, what about sleep?Tripp Lanier (18:22):Like, am I moving my body? How am I eating? Just the freaking basics, right? And we, we have an excuse me, well, I can't do that stuff. I've got to work. I've got to strive to be quote successful. So again, I want to make sure this is nothing to bag on doing well for ourselves. But when we look at it through this lens and suddenly your health is taken away from you, I mean, I know guys in their thirties or forties that have had a stroke, or they've had some kind of a, you know, a real breakdown in their body because of the stress. And they're just like, this is not worth it. Like, I, I am I'm on my death bed essentially because of how I'm treating myself or the stress or the panic attacks, or, you know, guys at the highest level of having these panic attacks and feeling like they've got to hide it from people come on, this is not strength.Tripp Lanier (19:06):Right. We get to a level of our success. And you think that once we got to this place, that the biggest baddest guys would be willing to start to take chances and really do more in their life. And they're not the tend to be more fragile. They're, they're afraid to be uncomfortable. They're afraid to take risks financially because they can't go backwards. That's a hit. And then there's this third thing it's like, what will people think of me? You know, I can't, I can't fail at this stage in my life. You know, I'm not in my twenties anymore. So I find all of that week, I find that that's, that's a fragile place to be for us. And here I am, I'm 47. I want to raise my hand. Like I love being comfortable. I love being safe. I love being accepted and, and secure in my social standing. So I, I say this to myself as well, but ideally like that real strength is that willingness to go into the places that are uncomfortable or uncertain, or could be a threat to what others may think of us.Jonathan Stark (19:54):Can you go into those three things that you just listed there? Sure does. Yeah. The three things that cause people to not want to, you know, perceive this as a big risk, right.Tripp Lanier (20:04):Working with a coaching client. And he said his trip, I want to do ABC. And it's like, it's like, okay, great. Now, you know, it's all green lights, right? Well, no, we're going to meet resistance. And so the three buckets that I find that we run into is a fear of being uncomfortable. Well, what does that mean? Obviously there's just a fear. Like I'm gonna have to work really hard or, you know, there's just like there could be effort involved with that, that that's just really uncomfortable or and it could also just be, this could be emotionally uncomfortable. I don't want to, I don't want to have to do things where I'm having conversations with people and I'm having to deal with things emotionally that are, that are uncomfortable. So that's a huge one. I don't want to go down this road if it's going to be uncomfortable.Tripp Lanier (20:41):Number two, I'm not okay with uncertainty. I'm not okay with a risk. I don't want to do anything. That's gonna jeopardize my time or my energy or my money. And I think we don't have to look very far. There's a thing that says, yeah, I want ABC and say, great, well, if you could write a blank check for ABC and it would happen, you're like, well, I don't know if I would do it, you know, because we don't want to risk it. We we're not, if we're not sure it's going to, there's going to be, we're going to get what we want. Then we, we balk at it. And then the third one, and it's a big one is that, that fear of looking like a moron for, you know, for lack of a better term, it's that anything that we will do that might invite criticism that might make us look stupid to ourselves or others, that where we might be a failure.Tripp Lanier (21:22):This is where you're kind of, you've alluded to this herd mentality thing. And so it can be, I can't be too big, but it can also be, I can't be too small. We've got our Goldilocks place where our, where our self-image has decided that we belong. And so I've, I, I run into this with my clients where there's guys that do just to not, I call it just enough disease or they do just enough to get right up to that place. And then they stop and then their income will calm down or whatever. And they're back into that scarcity thing, right? There's that in this, Oh, I do just enough, but then I don't want to make the effort to go any further and actually get some altitude and some spaciousness. And there's the other guys that do never enough disease, which is, they're always striving in their mind, it's it?Tripp Lanier (22:03):They, they can never measure up to this. You know, the self image changes once they get to this place, then it's like, well, I need to be that other guy now. And they, they keep adding onto who they're supposed to be. And they exhaust themselves that way. So all of that gets wrapped up in this, who am I you know, bucket and all three of those, those areas are huge. And they are typically what gets gets in our way. It's not the lack of information. It's not the lack of resources, really. It really boils down to those three things. I'm afraid to be uncomfortable. I'm afraid of risk or uncertainty. And I'm afraid to look like a moron.Jonathan Stark (22:38):Mm yeah. Playing not to lose instead of playing to win. It's like the one that, the one that I find people are most willing to articulate when I'm coaching someone is the second one, the risk. I don't know if this is going to work. How's this going to play out? They want some kind of guarantee that, that the strategy is going to definitely work. You know, it's like, well, if it was definitely going to work, it wouldn't be interesting. Like you can't, you know what I mean? Like they want to show me the data that this thing that you were suggesting I do is going to play out. Not everybody, but some people will, they want to see, like, it's almost like they want to see that map of the entire territory before we, you know, we leave. If we're going to drive from New York to LA, they want to know every place they're going to stop, how they're going to get there. What are they going to see along the way? How long is it going to take all of this stuff? And it's almost like they want me to drive them all the way there before they decide whether or not they are going to drive the car. And I mean, is that just dicking around? Is that more digging around or is it like, yeah,Tripp Lanier (23:40):It's a version of it. I did this for years after I sold my first company. I had enough, I had just enough to Dick around for a few years and I sold my house and had, you know, had some money in the bank after that sell. And then it was like, it was probably one of the worst things for me was because I didn't really have to lean in and do anything uncomfortable. I didn't have to really lean in and put anything at risk. And I certainly didn't have to do anything that might make me look like a more on our failure. And so I just circled the drain there and watched my bank account go down, go down. And it was one of the more anxious times that I've ever had in my lifetime, because I was disengaged. I felt rather powerless to do anything. I was looking for the perfect plan, anything that came across and like, okay, here's, here's an idea for the next phase of your life. I was like, well, I could see how it's not going to work out. I could see where it's not going to pan out. And then I would walk. And I was like, you know, there's gotta be the perfect thing. It'sTripp Lanier (24:32):Going to come along here. I just need to wait a little bit more. Meanwhile, I'm looking at the bank account going down and I watch so many of us do this as well. I think, I think it's a, it's a tough thing to wake up to, but it's, it's the truth, which is there is zero certainty about anything. And I think it's a mature stance to say, look, given that we've got to just go with the information that we've got and that step eight is not going to reveal itself until we're at step seven. And one of the things I like about this is that it's a lot easier to have an edge over so many others. If you're willing to walk through life this way, most of us can not tolerate that uncertainty. And so they will stick with kind of the, the safe boxes that give us the illusion of that certainty, but then they're confined as well.Tripp Lanier (25:18):If we're willing to, to approach things more, artistically, more vision, more from a visionary place, then we understand that this uncertainty is part of the equation. And it doesn't mean that we have to be morons and reckless and take a ton w w take on more risk. I think there's a sweet spot here, which is if we're willing to slow down and say, Hey, I'm here. Just need to take this next step. Just need to take this next step. And then mitigate that, that, that voice, you know, pay attention to that voice that says, I need to have that certain certainty. And you say, yeah, great. Got it. And it's just not going to be this path. If we want that path, we can go, you know, get this job. There was a, there was a time when I was struggling with my coaching practice and I hadn't quite put the pieces together at a big audience with my podcasts, but I hadn't quite figured out how to, you know, get the thing going with the, with the coaching and all that stuff.Tripp Lanier (26:05):I had this guy call me. He says, I got an opportunity for you. And I was like, great. Here comes, this is it. Here's my ship is coming in. And he offered me a sales job to sell air conditioners totally random. And I remember just being like, what? Like that, that's it. But if I remember feeling like that was such a test, it was like, here's your certainty. If you want certainty, give up on this mission that you've got to empower guys and to do this work in the world, the thing that you'd sold your other business for and go take your certainty. And I, I just remember being like, thanks so much, because you've really served me more than you'll ever know,Tripp Lanier (26:44):You so much. And I'm, I'm clear. I don't, I don't need to go down that road. Like, it was just like, Oh, okay. Then the uncertainty part is part of the equation. There's no escaping it. If you're, here's a big one. If you're feeling that uncertainty certainty, it doesn't mean something's wrong. And I think that's usually what it's like, I'm feeling all this discomfort, all this uncertainty, I must be doing something wrong. I'm looking at those guys. They seem to have it all figured out. They can go on there, you know, interviews and talk about all this stuff, exponent, you know, how you know, crazy growth and all that kind of stuff. Chances are they're, they're, they're living with a ton of uncertainty too. They just probably don't talk about.Jonathan Stark (27:18):Hmm. Yeah. So there's a, a great segment in a book by, I think it's in linchpin, Seth Godin's book, where he talks about the safety zone and the comfort zone and the, and how for a long time, because things were, you know, sort of industrial end of the industrial revolution, the strong middle-class, the safety zone and the comfort zone overlapped. So like, if you were looking at a Venn diagram, the safety zone was, or the comfort zone was inside the safety zone. But now with everything, you know, sort of new everything just crazy, everything's changing so fast. The, the, those two circles are no longer overlapping. So people are continuing to stay in their comfort zone, which used to coincidentally be in the safety zone as well. But now it's not, you need to get out of your comfort zone to get into, what's actually safe, in my opinion, or at least as a business owner, let's just limit it to business owners.Jonathan Stark (28:14):If you don't get out of that comfort zone, you won't, you are not being safe. So it's almost like it's almost like, and I've internalized this personally long enough that if I'm feeling comfortable, it scares the crap out of me because it's my internal compassing, you're going in the wrong direction. So to me, I think the uncertainty, you can use it, if something scares you, I'm almost always, I agree with you. I don't want to take on too much risky there. I've got little kids in a house and all that. But, but we're not, I'm not talking about taking crazy risks. If I, if something kind of scares, if I have like, Ooh, that's an idea. I'm like, Oh, I've got an idea, but it kind of scares me. I'm like, that's probably a good idea. I should probably do that. And then, you know, generally, sometimes I'll dig around and not get around to it, but I know that's, you know, but other times I'll just do it.Jonathan Stark (29:01):And I just like, yeah, I'm going to do this. I might screw up. It might not work. You know, whatever it's things are going to go wrong. But if you've got, I see the, that internal feeling as a compass and I've got a vision. So I know I want to go in that direction. I want to, I have this vision of the, of this future state. And, and I've got this guy. I don't know what the path is. I don't know where I'm going to stop for gas along the way, but I've got this compass. And I know if I follow the compass, it's going to take me in that direction. But so I'm, I'm just, I could be completely wrong though, but that's the, that's the thing that causes me to do something, you know, and actually it feels like forward. And it seems, you know, if you look back, it's kind of like, wow, I did cover a lot of territory. This seems to be going in the right direction, seems to be going in a direction and not circles. And anyway, so that really, that whole section of the book really resonated with me about the, your, to me, your compass is, does this make me feel stronger?Tripp Lanier (30:00):Yeah. Yeah. And I, I want to be really clear that this isn't a one size fits all thing. I don't think all of us are cut out for this type of livelihood. I don't think it's for everybody. I don't, I don't think that, Hey, that guy, that that's feeling sick in his nine to five right now he can do it if he really wants to. I, I don't believe that. I think it really is going to be up to that person and whether they decide they want it that bad, but I don't think that it's, there's an entitlement to that, that they just need to kind of come out here and follow the steps. It really takes a certain type of person to be able to do this work. And I've, I used to think that it was available to everybody, but I've learned that through conversations that I can, I can kind of smell it in the first 10 or 15 minutes when I'm talking to a guy.Tripp Lanier (30:45):And if he says he wants ABC and I'm like, good luck, I'll be like, call me in a year. Like, why don't you call me in a year and see where you are? Cause I think where you want to be is the, is the place we should start. Like once you get there, then we would start our work. But you've got a lot, you've got a lot to establish for yourself before we get to there. So I don't say that to discourage anybody. But I do say that because I think there's some of us that can beat ourselves up because we're not different. We're not, we're not somebody we say we should be or cut from different cloth. They're, one's not better than the other, but I think it is this, this ability to handle the uncertainty, to find actually actually find a creative flow in it, to get jazzed about it. A willingness to say, Hey, I've got a hunch here. I think this might go some place it's valuable to me. That is not everybody. Right. That's that's not all of us. And so I just want to lay that out there that it, that it's, it's, it's it's a smaller group of folks, men and women that, that tap into that.Jonathan Stark (31:44):Right? Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to, like, I have nothing else to really go on, but my past experience with a lot of this stuff and you know, I was pretty serious about music in my late teens and early twenties actually pretty much through my entire twenties, went to music school. The whole thing, you know, lived in a van too, you know, toured around the Northeast, all that like was like, I want to be a rockstar. And, and that looking back on it, if I was going to do it over again, or, you know, like the older me was going to give advice to younger me, it would, it has a lot to do with me having a vision of myself as like a rock star. And it wasn't a good fit, like, so do you mean like, what do you mean I would have hated it?Jonathan Stark (32:36):Like, I don't like being recognized. I don't like talking to people on the street. It's like, it would have been the absolute worst. I can't stand being on a skit. You know, like a routine, like going on a tour would have killed me like a big tour, like a world tour. It would've been like, this is the worst thing ever. I would have hated it. I can't stand planes. Like the whole thing. It would have been, it would have been terrible. Right. The thing I wanted was more about the, you know, proving it to my, you know, junior high friends that I actually was actually good. You know, like I'm actually a good musician. See, I can prove it. I run, it won a Grammy and I tour the world and it was more about that stuff. And hilariously, you know, for someone who would get up in front of a crowd of people to presumably entertain them, I never thought about the audience at all.Jonathan Stark (33:23):It was all like, how does my hair look? Are these pants tight enough? Blah, blah, blah. You know, like, am I cool? That was, that was it. It was terrible. It was terrible. But the reason I bring it up is because I had a vision of myself as this like cool rock star guy. And I spent a lot of time going after it, but it wasn't, it was, it was bad vision. It was super self centered. And especially in like a performing art, it was bizarre to be that self-centered. And if I had, I reached it, I wouldn't have liked it. I guarantee you, I wouldn't have liked it. I don't care how much money I would have made if any, but it was not my jam. And so I'm kind of tying that into two things. One is that I had a, a weird vision that was very self-centered and I tried to turn myself into that thing, but it wasn't like I was on a journey to help any, I was not trying to help anybody.Jonathan Stark (34:11):I had no, no proving totally outright. It was proving. It was totally would have been completely unfulfilling. But the other thing is, you know, like you were talking about not, everybody's cut out to be, say an entrepreneur. Well, I wasn't cut out to be a rockstar, but I wanted it really bad, but everything got way better for me after I gave up on that idea. And it was just like, you know what, and that wasn't easy. Cause that's like your whole identity, everybody who knows you is like, yeah. You know, singer songwriter tours around it. So I guess two things there. One is like, well here, let me turn this into a question since we're supposed to be talking and just me monologuing what, when someone comes to you with a goal or vision or something that they want to work on that you suspect is proving w how do you unpack that for them? So you can really find out for yourself or maybe help them find out if that's really what they want. Tripp Lanier (35:11):Most of the time I can hear it in their language, right. So if I ask him, you know, if I was coaching you back then, and I had, I had a lot of the similar things, cause I was in a band and we were, we were doing the whole major label courtship thing. So and I was around people that were real rock stars, like, Oh, that guys, he really wants it. Like he's going to make it happen. Like that, that kind of, I'm going to move mountains to be a rock star kinda thing. But the, the thing I would listen for is how much are they focused on that outcome and how much are they focused on the process? Because if they hate it, they hate waking up every day and doing the process. And the only thing they can do is focused on that outcome.Tripp Lanier (35:48):But the image I get is that the person that's depriving themselves of oxygen, it's like, okay, when they go in their water and they're going to hold their breath all day and or months or whatever, to get to this outcome. And then it's like, Oh, you know, and it's like, okay, what about that strengthens you, right? Which is different than I get to get up. Every day, I get to noodle around on my guitar. I get to then talk to people and they tell me how great my record is. And then I get to go on stage. And then I get to work with these guys. And then I get this, I get to, I get to like, isn't this awesome instead of make this stop, I just want, I only, I'm only in it for this one particular thing. And if, if that's it, and it really is this, you can tell the, the, the outcomes that are like, wow, look at how special I'm going to be.Tripp Lanier (36:32):Then I know where we're on the wrong foot there. And sometimes that guy needs to go do that stuff. He actually needs to just that's his karma. He just needs to go exhaust that and get hit with the two by four enough times where he's like, okay, I think I've done with trying to prove that I'm finally special and unique and lovable. So, but the, but it does, it does flip around and to come back and say, wait, do I actually enjoy this process? And, and for the entrepreneurs that I work with, especially developer guys, they're doing this stuff, no matter what, you know, one of my clients is a developer. This was his passion project on the side. You know, this, I, I think he started it, you know, pulled it out of the, out of like, Oh, by the way, I got this thing, I kinda like doing, you know, he was an hourly kind of dude got this thing, a kind of like doing, you know, he's doing a clear and 50 grand a month.Tripp Lanier (37:16):And I think there's over a million users of this, of this product that he's built now. So it's it's, but there was all this stuff in between, which was like, well, this is the thing I love. And I don't want people to tear apart, my baby, and this is my hobby. And that is the place I go to escape to. And, but you couldn't stop him from doing it. Like after a 14 hour day, he would, he couldn't wait to pull up his, his computer and start working on this project. So those are the guys that my money is on. Whereas it's like, you couldn't stop them no matter what, like they love the process. And the only ones that are good that would get motivated by some kind of a carrot. I was like, yeah, you can't,Jonathan Stark (37:48):That's not going anywhere. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. And I've, I've gone through, I go through like 10 or 15 year phases, or I have gone through where it's like, I start loving the process and to get into it. And then I [inaudible] with the rockstar thing, that goal kind of came later. It was like, how am I going to, I don't want to be broke. That was, you know, it was like, okay. So while I got to be famous, so but then after a while, I did start to hate the process. I can see, I can give you clear stories of when I, you know, like driving up to it in ATM on a Tuesday night, at three in the morning to deposit seventy-five dollars from sub gig, I just did. And like too drunk to be driving. Anyway, what am I even doing?Jonathan Stark (38:26):And I have to get up early to do my day job the next morning. It was like, I'm like, you just have one of those wake up moments where you're just like, okay, I think I'm done here. This is fun. S I've got a question we're coming up to time here. So we should probably wrap up soon, but I want to ask a question about whatever you want to call it, purpose, mission, vision, your why, your big idea, whatever that is, that, that sort of larger purpose, what, how do you help people? Do they, do they, people need to come to you kind of knowing that, or you help them uncover that. And if so, how do you do that?Tripp Lanier (39:03):I'm not really popular for saying this, but most of the time when people come to me and they say, I need to know my purpose in life, it's usually this, it go show. Like they they've, they've decided that they need to have their ego has decided that this is the thing that's going to make me really unique. It's another form of proving, right? Like this purpose in life makes me somebody, it means my life is meaningful. That means it's worth living. And I mean, I think that that's, you know what man searched for, meaning like, we are struggling for that. Like, it's, it's innate in us to, to want to look for that at some point. And I think it's good to have a sense of humor about it and recognize that it's usually just a story. It's a nice wrapper that we put around ourselves you know, and say, Hey, this just helps me.Tripp Lanier (39:50):It helps me get through the day. It helps me to do the work. Now. It doesn't mean that we don't experience meaning. Cause that's a, that's a different part, but the story it's usually identity oriented. Look at me, I'm a rockstar. Look at me. I'm an author. Look at me. I'm, you know, I'm just, I'm not just another Joe blow. Right. Nobody's ever like my purpose in life is to live on a cul-de-sac in in in this, you know, kind of middle-class neighborhood. Like that's, nobody's like I wake up and that's my purpose, right? It's it's always extravagant or unique or something on that level. So I think most of the time, those stories are like, I take with a grain of salt that said, when I asked him, what has you feel alive? What has you feel deeply rewarded? What has your heart open when you do this thing?Tripp Lanier (40:33):And you just feel like, Oh my God. And usually there is a sense, like, this is why I'm alive. For me, that was coaching, right. For me, it was having those conversations with people and helping them transition from one way of being in the world to another, like, I get this deep sense of like, yes, this is really powerful for me. And it's also really powerful for them. This is awesome. I can't believe I get to do that. I want to help you tap into that. Again, we're more into these process oriented things instead of this identity or, Hey, here's my label kind of thing. So again, if somebody comes to me that big, that big fancy story, I usually am like really? And then I look at their actions. Cause a lot of times they may tell me that their purpose in life is ABC, but they don't put any time or energy into it.Tripp Lanier (41:12):It's just what they like to tell people. So what do we, what do we do on a daily basis that has us feel more expansive? What has us feel stronger? What has this feel free? What has this feel alive? What opens our heart has this field deeply connected with other people? Those are the questions that I tend to ask people. That's really where kind of our whole body is telling us and saying, this is what you're really here for. And that can be surprising to find that that doesn't necessarily align with the conversation we're having about ourselves in our head. So I tell this story in the book, I was coaching a guy, a music producer LA had had his own studio on a fancy lot with a bunch of other fancy names and all that kind of stuff miserable right on the outside looks so cool and hanging out with all these fancy people and all this stuff miserable.Tripp Lanier (41:59):Why is he miserable? Because he hasn't gotten a Grammy and these other people had Graham and that guy over there had a hit and this hit did, he didn't have this hit and like this, all of this comparison. Okay. I didn't get invited that party. Why did he get into that part of that? All of that. And so I said, let's, this is miserable. Right? So I said, what if we actually got in touch with where you actually felt alive and you felt strong and you actually felt had a heart again. And, you know, I said, just track it, just track throughout your week. And let's, let's just see where that happens. And he said he he'd stopped into home Depot or something. And he was getting something, this old lady came up to him and said, can you help me find a light bulb?Tripp Lanier (42:32):And he was like, sure. And he's just chatting her up and they're chatting. And he just like dropped the whole I'm important thing and was just relating with her. And she was so appreciative and it was so sweet and it didn't matter about him being important or anything. And he found himself and he was like, that was the highlight of my, of my week. And he's like, and I'm not even embarrassed. Like he was like, that was so cool. Just to have that experience as a great, we'll use that as data. Let's just see if we can have more of those types of experiences instead of you chasing this idea that you need to be so important.Jonathan Stark (43:01):[Inaudible] Yeah. That's wild. It reminds me about, it reminds me of something dark services too, about, you know, like the best advice is the advice that causes you to do something like you're excited. Like you hear it. You're like, Oh, I'm excited to do that. I'm hearing a lot of echoes of that. Here in what you're saying, it's like, Oh, I get to do this or that I get to do this today. So that can be it's it's, I'm sure it was true in this case, you know, I bet you that guy's not like working in nail Island home Depot now, but you know, it's like it can be a big identity shift. I think when you, you've got this one picture of yourself, rockstar, and then you're like, Oh, actually I like writing books. Like I get up here. I would much rather write books and, and not be an author, but have do this stuff. And author does, which is write books every day. Right.Tripp Lanier (43:49):And I, I think more of that more and more when we just wake up and we were doing that stuff, and we're just in the flow of doing their thing. We're not sitting around navel gazing or looking in the mirror and wondering if our butts too big or, you know, any of that kind of stuff. We're just, it's like I'm living my life and I'm feeling aligned now instead of living from my ears up and worrying about.Jonathan Stark (44:13):Yup. Awesome. Well, that's a great place to leave it. Where can people go to find out more about all things trip? Tripp Lanier (44:19):Let's see, the new man podcast is available anywhere where you get podcasts and there's a ton of free resources@thenewmanpodcast.com. You can pick up the book which is called this book will make you dangerous@dangerousbookstore.com. Amazon also has all the formats as well. And if you want to learn more about the coaching services that I provide, you can go to trip linear.com.Jonathan Stark (44:45):Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining us. Everybody has got to check out this book. I really it's one of those few books that I think literally anyone could benefit from, from reading. So get out there and buy it. Cool. Thanks Jonathan. Thank you. Thanks for joining me. All right. That's it for this week. I'm Jonathan Stark and this has been ditching hourly. See you next time. Would you like to learn how to get paid? What you're worth? How about selling your expertise and not your labor? What about making more money without working more hours? We worked through all of this together in the pricing seminar registration starts soon. So head on over to the pricing seminar.com to add your name to the announcement list that you are L again is the pricing seminar.com. I hope to see you there. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Erik Dietrich shares the secret sauce he uses at Hit Subscribe to improve search engine rankings for their clients.  Hit Subscribe DaedTech ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Jim McDannald joins me to talk about the life changing magic of niching down. Jim's Website Jim's Twitter ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Former professional baseball player Destin Hood joins me for a coaching call to brainstorm positioning for his new digital marketing business.Related Links The boutique hotel chain I couldn't remember the name of... Destin's wikipedia page Destin's website Destin's email ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Financial planner and business coach, Dan Cuprill joined me On Ditching Hourly to talk about how service providers can increase profits by creating systems and experimenting with new pricing models."Systems create profit. Profit gives us the freedom we want." - Dan Cuprill, Founder, Advisor ArchitectAbout Dan CuprillDan Cuprill is a Certified Financial Planner, blogger, and the host of two podcasts: Solving the Financial Puzzle & The Profitable Advisor. A graduate of the University of Iowa, he earned his MBA from Northwestern University. Related Links Dan's Agency Dan's Podcast Advisor Architect ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Alex Hillman of Indy Hall and Stacking The Bricks joins me to talk about his new book The Tiny MBA. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Software course legend Wes Bos joins me to talk about how he created his training business.Talking Points What to do before you make a course. What makes a good course creator. Pros and cons of publishing courses on your own site vs a platform like Egghead. How to create interest prior to launching a course.  What to think about when thinking about updating a course. Course pricing techniques (free, paid tiers, team licenses, parity pricing, sponsorships) Links We Mentioned Wes’ website Wes’ Syntax.fm podcast Wes’ Twitter Wes’ YouTube Channel Wes’ GitHub Wes’ Free Javascript Course The E-Myth Revisited ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Speaker, executive consultant, and author of "Marketing BS" Edward Nevraumont joins me to talk about how programmatic advertising (e.g., Facebook ads) can be used to grow a boutique service business.Edward's Bio:As Chief Marketing Officer at General Assembly, Edward helped build and prepare the company for a $412.5mm sale to Adecco in 2018.During his five years at A Place for Mom, Edward steered the company from the brink of collapse to generating more than 30% year-over-year growth over multiple years. A Place for Mom is now the largest senior-living referral service on the planet.While Vice President at Expedia, Edward created the VIP Hotel program which is now at 4000+ hotels and generating a 22% lift in stays for Expedia’s elite customers. He also created Expedia Rewards (a points-based loyalty program), and Expedia’s first landing pages testing team (which now runs 2000+ tests/year).Prior to his executive positions, Edward worked as a consultant for McKinsey & Company and in account management for Procter & Gamble. A Wharton MBA graduate, Edward honed his global perspectives by working and living on four continents, including a year in Africa.Related Links: Edward's book Edward's site Edward's mailing list ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Jimmy Rose joins me to talk about how to validate the idea for a SaaS product and position it with the target market as a solution to a painful problem.Here is Jimmy's Twitter bio:I help people automate stuff with Zapier. Co-founder of @contentsnare which helps collect content & documents from clients. Skilled at talking to dogs.Related Links: https://contentsnare.com/ https://jimmyrose.me/ https://twitter.com/_jimmyrose ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

You can't make things better without changing something, and changing something requires a leap of faith.  ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Business coach Geraldine Carter joined me to brainstorm how her CPA clients could price three different phases of a forensic accounting engagement. Even if you're not a CPA, I think you'll find the approaches we came up with applicable to your service business. Here's a link to an interactive transcript: READ TRANSCRIPT(It was machine generated, so it's not perfect) ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Connect with Wayne on LinkedIn ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

In the world of vintage watches, provenance is a critical component of the value of a given watch.What is provenance?Here's a good description from Timepiece Chronicle:When discussing vintage watches, especially those claimed to have been owned by notable figures, the notion of provenance should always be kept at the forefront of your mind. Far more important than condition or value, provenance is the term used to describe the legitimacy of recorded ownership for a particular item. Whilst for many vintage watch purchases it is condition and value that are of primary concern when considering watches that are claimed to have belonged to an important figure, provenance is the most important factor.So... provenance is kinda like the backstory of a watch.For example:A 1930s era 14k gold Longines tonneau-shaped wrist watch sells for about $1000.A 1930s era 14k gold Longines tonneau-shaped wrist watch owned by Albert Einstein sold for $596,000.Almost 600 times more money for the same watch!But is it really same watch? Sure, the materials and construction and design are all the same. But one is a direct physical connection to one of the greatest scientific minds who ever lived, and the other... well, it tells the time (and probably pretty badly, at that).Here's the thing...The value of a product or service often comes from intangible things like provenance or status or brand or morale or peace of mind.This is not irrational buying behavior. You prove it every time you buy a Coke or shop at Target or splurge on a pair of Nikes and tell yourself that "this one is worth more because of $reasons".Value is not an inherent property of a thing. It's a perception in the mind of the buyer.The question is, what does your ideal buyer value?Yours,—JEnjoy this episode? Here are more things you might like:Hourly Billing Is Nuts—Essays On The Insanity Of Trading Time For MoneyLearn more »The Freelancer’s Roadmap—Learn The Tools, Tactics, And Systems You Need To Transform Yourself From Commodity Freelancer To In-Demand ConsultantLearn more »Learn Your Lines—What To Say When Clients Put You On The SpotLearn more »Pigeonhole Yourself—Transform Your Marketing From Soggy To Solid With These Real-World ExamplesLearn more » ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Long time reader and friend-of-the-list Scott Gould sent in this great question about starting a podcast (shared with permission):Hi Jonathan, I’m curious - my thought on producing a podcast would be “would anybody even listen to it?” What’s your take on that? Because surely that’s the most important thing to consider? Yours engagingly, ScottSure, it would be nice if lots of people listened to your podcast, but if you start out with a one-on-one interview show format (which is my recommended starting format for new podcasters), it doesn’t really matter of anyone listens.Wait, what?You shouldn’t care if anyone listens to your podcast?Yep, that’s right. Having listeners is just one of the benefits of hosting a podcast, and IMHO it’s not the most important one. Here are three other benefits that I think are more important:1) Building relationshipsHosting a podcast means you always have something to invite people to (especially, luminaries in your field). If I reached out to Seth Godin and asked, “Hey, you wanna to jump on the phone for an hour so I can pick your brain?” he would surely say no. But if I asked instead, “Hey, would you like to come on our podcast and talk about that thing you care about?” he might agree.When I dreamed up the idea for TBOA, it was specifically for the purpose of having something to invite my favorite thought leaders to. It’s nice that the audience is growing, but all I care about is getting to talk to really smart people for an hour.2) Researching your marketThis is similar to the previous benefit, but instead of inviting rockstars to come on your show, you invite people from your target market and essentially have a free consulting call with them. This is a great way to get to know the hopes, dreams, worries, and fears of your ideal buyers without the pressure of trying to close a deal. As a side effect, improving your podcast interview skills will improve your sales interview skills.BONUS: If you are currently doing execution work (e.g., coding, copywriting, illustration, video production, audio editing, voice overs, etc) and want to transition into consulting, coaching, or other types of pure advisory engagements, inviting ideal buyers onto your show is low-risk way to road test your capabilities, and to combat impostor syndrome.3) Rapid content creationHosting an interview show is a great way to create a huge amount of quality content very quickly. An hour long chat with a guest will result in about 10,000 words of content. Could you write that many words in an hour? Heck no. For very little money, you can have your episodes transcribed and then read through to pull out rough drafts for shorter written articles that you could publish as blog posts, email messages, or social media posts.I could keep going, but hopefully you get the point. There are plenty of benefits to starting a podcast even if nobody listens!Yours,—JSubscribe to Jonathan’s daily list ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

If you bill by the hour, there's no financial incentive to get better at what you do.Usually when I say this to people who bill hourly, their knee-jerk reaction is to reject the idea out of hand. They'll point out that they love getting better at what they do and that they often invest time and money in their professional development.And I'll say, "Sure, but whatever your incentive is to do that, it's not financial. The faster you get, the less money you make."Eventually, it will begin to dawn on them that there is a paradox at the center of their professional life. On the one hand, they love getting better at their craft. Who doesn't? On the other, there is no financial reward for getting better. In fact, there is often a financial penalty.Faced with this conundrum, they will sometimes deploy impressive mental gymnastics to avoid having to change anything. The most breathtaking effort I've heard so far goes like this:"If I get so good at my craft that I'm faster than all of my competitors, then my estimates will be the lowest and I'll always win the work. Therefore, I do have an incentive to get better even though I bill by the hour."The first time I heard this one, it made my head spin. It was so misguided that I didn't know where to start debunking it. It was like the guy said to me, "Sure, it's a race to zero, but hey... a race is a race and I want to win!" Unfortunately, this wasn't the last time I've heard this argument so maybe it's worth me walking through it.Here goes...For the sake of discussion, let's say Bob charges $100 per hour and gets twice as many new project leads as he can handle. His success rate with landing new projects is 50%. He's confident that if he could cut his estimates in half, he'd land 100% of these new projects.So, Bob invests time and money into tools, training, and systems that make him twice as fast at what he does. Now, his estimates for new projects are half what they would've been, and he does in fact start landing 100% of his incoming leads.Okay, so... what has Bob accomplished?He's now working on twice as many projects as before, but making only half the money on each as he would have. Therefore, his overall revenue has not changed, but his administrative duties and switching costs have increased. And he's out the time and money he invested in getting more efficient in the first place.Here's the thing...Even in this oversimplified example, there's clearly no financial incentive for Bob to invest in getting better at what he does. In a more real-world scenario, it makes even less sense for hourly billers to get better at what they do.In my experience, the problem that most self-employed professionals are wrestling with is not that their close rate is too low, it's that they don't get enough leads in the first place.Getting better at what you do so you can undercut your competitors and close more deals doesn't solve for the "I'm not getting enough leads" problem. In fact, it makes it worse because if you get twice as fast, you'll probably need twice as many leads to make the same money.(Regardless, you don't have to go to all the trouble of getting better at what you do just to beat your competitors on price... just cut your hourly rate in half. Boom. Done.)Hourly billing does not reward expertise, it punishes it. The better you get, the less you make. That's the hourly trap.Yours,—J Enjoy this episode? Here are more things you might like:Altitude Of Involvement—A visual walkthrough of how to charge more money for less labor by leveraging your expertise.Learn more »Learn Your Lines—What To Say When Clients Put You On The SpotLearn more »Pigeonhole Yourself—Transform Your Marketing From Soggy To Solid With These Real-World ExamplesLearn more »Hourly Billing Is Nuts—Essays On The Insanity Of Trading Time For MoneyLearn more »The Freelancer’s Roadmap—Learn The Tools, Tactics, And Systems You Need To Transform Yourself From Commodity Freelancer To In-Demand ConsultantLearn more »Group Coaching with Jonathan—Live group video Q&A sessions every other week, instant access to 20+ hours of previous sessions, and a dedicated Slack for group discussion.Learn more »Private Coaching with Jonathan—Do you have an established software business that is doing okay but has been plateaued for too long? My Private Coaching Program will give you the instruction, guidance, and accountability you need to get unstuck and increase your profitability.Learn more » ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

It's not uncommon for a student to come to me for advice about some sort of relationship-related dilemma they're facing. Stuff like:  "I agreed to hire my good-for-nothing brother-in-law and now he's destroying my business!" "After working together for years, my biggest client is considering a cheaper firm and wants us to cut our price in half!" "My business partner wants to pivot into a business direction that I feel is unethical and I can't talk him out of it!"  Statements like these are usually followed by thousands of words of backstory full of slights and subtleties and worries and so forth. When they finally run out of steam, they conclude their monologue with the question:"So what do you think I should I do?" To which I would reply (in order of above list): "Fire him."  "Politely refuse."  "Split up." Usually, this is greeted with a few seconds of stunned silence, followed by: "But it's not that simple!"Yes. Yes, it is that simple. It's just not EASY. There's a big difference. When a problem is complex, a reasonable approach is to do research. When a problem is simple, research is procrastination. If your good-for-nothing brother-in-law is destroying your business, you need to fire him. It's not a complex problem, it's simple. The additional backstory (e.g., how mad your sister might be or what the BIL might do in retaliation or that your parents might disown you) doesn't change the fact that you have to fire him if you want to save the business. If your sister gets really mad at you or whatever, that's a separate problem to be dealt with separately. You might think I'm splitting hairs about the difference between "simple" and "easy". It's true that these two words are very similar and can be used synonymously sometimes, but in cases where you've got a hard decision to make, one's mind seems to want to put it off by tricking itself into thinking it's complex. Deep down, you know what needs to be done, you just don't want to do it. So you pretend it's complex and respond to the phantom complexity by "researching it" (e.g., asking for outside opinions, waiting yet another day to see if things change, back-channeling with parties who are familiar with the matter but not in a position to influence anything, etc). It's just stalling, which makes the problem worse. Once you recognize that what needs to be done is simple (albeit hard), your next steps will become clear. Yours, —JP.S. Are you wrestling with a business problem that you'd like to get clarity on? I'm available for a limited number of 1-on-1 coaching calls each month. You can book yours here: jonathanstark.com/call ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Guest BioMichael Zipursky – Michael has consulted for organizations and advised leaders throughout North America, Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia and the Middle East in over 30 industries, from service providers to billion dollar multi-national corporations including Panasonic, Dow Jones, Financial Times, Royal Bank and many others. Michael is an in-demand speaker and gives keynotes and workshops for the Certified Management Consultants Association, Canadian Internet Marketing Conference, Social Media Camp, and others. Michael’s work has appeared in MarketingProfs, Huffington Post, Financial Times, FOX Business, Maclean's, HR Executive, Business Edge, Marketing Magazine, and in several other media and publications. He is the author of 5 books, including:  Elite Consulting Mind Consulting Success® ACT NOW Follow Michael on Twitter @MichaelZipursky LinkedIn: Michael ZipurskyRelated Links The Introduction Game by Jonathan Stark (PDF) Should You Write A Book? (AUDIO) How To Build Your First Productized Service (EMAIL COURSE) Built To Sell by John Warrillow (BOOK) Creating a Business That Can Thrive Without You with guest John Warrillow (AUDIO) ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

How and why to flip the script in sales interviews.

The lovely and talented Alex Hillman of PhillyFreelance.com invited me to speak to their membership last week about repositioning your freelance business in response to COVID-19. Here's the event description:With all the belt-tightening going on, it’s never been more important to quickly and clearly communicate your value proposition to potential clients. Whether you need to pivot from an old positioning statement to a new one, or to firm up your soggy positioning statement in response to a crisis, this interactive session will help you clarify your value proposition so that anyone you meet can easily understand:  What you do  Who you help  What you help them with  Why you're the best person for the job  Who is this talk for? This webinar is for freelancers, consultants, coaches, contractors, and anyone else who sells their services for living. ----The reaction from the audience was quite positive, especially regarding the Q&A segment at the end. Alex graciously allowed me to republish the audio of the talk as an episode of Ditching Hourly so other freelancers could potentially benefit from it. Alex has a long history of creating cool, useful, and innovative products and services, so if you're a freelancer or consultant you should really check out his stuff:  IndyHall.org StackingTheBricks.com PhillyFreelance.com If you'd like to have me speak to your community or appear on your podcast, just shoot me an email at jstark@jonathanstark.com and let me know what you have in mind. P.S. Here’s a link to the diagram that Alex mentioned in the intro: Make More For Less ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Cross post from The Business of Authority

Cross post from The Business of Authority

This episode is an audio version of a message I sent to my daily list. Here's the text:https://jonathanstark.com/daily/20200410-1624-tack-on-a-zero-and-try-again ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Cross post from The Business of Authority

https://www.crowdcast.io/e/positioning-crash-course ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Cross post from The Business of Authority

Will Bachman, McKinsey alum and co-founder of Umbrex, joins me to talk about the benefits of finding a community of peers as an independent consultant. Talking Points: How to compete with big firms The importance of niching down The importance of specializing The secret benefits of podcasting Links:  Will's community: Umbrex Will's podcast: Unleashed Will's LinkedIn Profile ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Daniel Robey joins me for coaching on how to move his landscape architecture business away from hourly billing.  ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Interactive transcript available here: https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/p3J94iQGQj3paj9kQr4_G-yELyffI7q24nkRGAnOdcDPppzUXzz1KHzbTsDUdI4dDYWxByaWXlY-tv_HoPb88Vvi5U8?loadFrom=SharedLink ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Erik Dietrich shares how he went from solo software consultant to productized service business owner (and how it throws a monkey wrench in the works when a contractor wants to be paid hourly).Erik's sites:https://daedtech.com/https://www.hitsubscribe.com/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Value pricing legend Ron Baker joins me to talk about the next pricing model for service professionals.Ron’s BioRonald J. Baker started his CPA career in 1984 with KPMG’s Private Business Advisory Services in San Francisco. Today, he is the founder of VeraSage Institute—the leading think tank dedicated to educating professionals internationally—a radio talk-show host on The Soul of Enterprise: Business in the Knowledge Economy, and the Chief Value Officer at Armanino LLP.Ron has authored seven best-selling books, including: The Firm of the Future; Pricing on Purpose; Measure What Matters to Customers; and Implementing Value Pricing.Ron has toured the world, spreading his value-pricing message to over 210,000 professionals. He has been named on Accounting Today’s 2001-2007, and 2011-2018 Top 100 Most Influential People in the profession; and inducted into the CPA Practice Advisor Hall of Fame in 2018. He is a faculty member of the Professional Pricing Society. He presently resides in Petaluma, California.To contact Ron Baker:E-mail: ron@verasage.com Website/Blog: www.verasage.com and www.thesoulofenterprise.com Twitter @ronaldbakerRelated Links Subscribed: Why the Subscription Model Will Be Your Company’s Future - and What to Do About It The Automatic Customer: Creating a Subscription Business in Any Industry The Inevitable: Understanding the 12 Technological Forces That Will Shape Our Future Hassle Free Home Services Tomorrow 3.0: Transaction Costs and the Sharing Economy ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Reuven Lerner on building a software training business. Reuven's Bio:Reuven is a full-time Python trainer. In a given year, he teaches courses at companies in the United States, Europe, Israel, and China — as well as to people around the world, via his online courses.Reuven created one of the first 100 Web sites in the world just after graduating from MIT’s computer science department. He opened Lerner Consulting in 1995, and has been offering training services since 1996.Reuven’s most recent book is “Python Workout,” a collection of Python exercises with extensive explanations, published by Manning.Reuven’s free, weekly “Better developers” newsletter, about Python and software engineering, is read by more than 10,000 developers around the globe. His “Trainer weekly” newsletter is similarly popular among people who give corporate training. Links:Reuven's website ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Long-time listeners may recall an interview that Rochelle and I did a little while back with Joe Pine on The Business of Authority. On TBOA, we talked a lot about how to elevate your business from selling services to selling experiences and ultimately to selling transformations (i.e., outcomes) but we didn’t get a chance to talk much about pricing these sorts of higher value offerings. So, Joe graciously agreed to join me on Ditching Hourly to talk about just that: DH139: Joe Pine on Pricing ExperiencesMore about Joe…Co-author of The Experience Economy, Joseph Pine II is an internationally acclaimed author, speaker, and management advisor to Fortune 500 companies and entrepreneurial start-ups alike.In 1999, Joe and his partner James H. Gilmore wrote the best-selling book The Experience Economy: Work Is Theatre & Every Business a Stage, which demonstrates how goods and services are no longer enough; what companies must offer today are experiences – memorable events that engage each customer in an inherently personal way.2019 marks the 20th anniversary of The Experience Economy and it is has been revised and has just be released with a new subtitle: “Competing for Customer Time, Attention, and Money.” You can order it here:The Experience Economy, 20th Anniversary EditionIn true “experience” fashion, Joe and Jim are running a book re-launch celebration on Nov 13, 2019. If you’d like to be included, you can register here to participate in person or online:https://strategichorizons.com/books-and-ideas/launchfest/ Definitely check out Joe’s work. He’s the real deal. Related LinksJoe Pine The Experience Economy Strategic Horizons Joe on TwitterTranscriptTranscript of Joe Pine on Ditching Hourly ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

How can artists, designers, and other creative people make a living doing what they love?LINKS Margot's Website Margot's Instagram ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Joel Pilger on positioning.Talking Points The importance of outcome-based positioning The democratization of tools (and the resulting commoditization of services) How Rails damaged the business of web development The types of value that creative firms can deliver (if they would just stop talking about their tools) Why creative firms accidentally devalue themselves in their marketing How jargon destroys client trust Why it is a bad thing if your clients understand your jargon The difference between building something nobody hates vs something someone loves The difference between between appealing to peers vs appealing to buyers Why SEO attracts price sensitive buyers Why great positioning attracts better clients Why niching down attracts more AND better leads How the "addiction to cash" wrecks your sales efforts Joel's AMAZING positioning hack (a vs the) Joel's "Three P" positioning exercise (i.e., purpose, power, personality) Joel's BioJoel Pilger helps great creatives run great creative companies. As a RevThinker, Joel has advised hundreds of creative firms based in 23 countries around the world. He is the host of the RevThinking Podcast as well as the host of regular QOHORT retreats and dinners for creative entrepreneurs in New York, Los Angeles, and London.Related Links Joel's website RevThinking Podcast RevThink email course QOHORT Joel's bad positioning meme Jonathan's soggy positioning collection The Introduction Game The Rolodex Moment The Why Conversation First Fight website First Fight interview ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The importance of trusting your gut, shipping great work, and taking some risks. About Paul Paul Mellor is the founder and design director at Mellor & Smith, which is a brand and ad agency that gets clients like Amazon, Expedia, and Spotify noticed. Talking Points Trusting your gut Comfort zone vs safety zone Ego risk vs real risk Swearing in your marketing Links We Mentioned Mellor & Smith Take Fucking Risks Events Paul on LinkedIn RiskyPicker GFDA ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

How to transition a 50+ person agency from hourly billing to value pricing without going out of business in the process. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Dan Mall joins me to talk about pricing 7-figure design projects. Dan's Bio: Dan Mall is a creative director and advisor from Philly. He's the founder and director of SuperFriendly, a design collaborative that brings exquisite creative direction and design to the world’s most important and interesting organizations. Dan is also the co-founder and CEO of SuperBooked, a service that helps you find work with a little help from your friends. Related Links Dan's personal website Dan's business website Dan's book Pricing Design Dan's sales process map Pricing Creativity by Blair Enns Pricing On Purpose by Ron Baker ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Guest Tom Critchlow joins me to talk about mixing strategic thinking into implementation work. LINKS Tom's website Tom's article The Business of Expertise by David C. Baker The Altitude of Involvement How To Build Your First Productized Service Building The Perfect Testimonial ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Design retainers with guest Morgan Pendergrass Morgan's website - Luxxe.co ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Should I look at the client's code before quoting a value price? No. It opens you up to risk from a total stranger It implies that you're operating with a scope-based mindset and will end up pricing based on your perceived cost You can find out what you need to know in faster and safer ways... and if it blows up in your face anyway, you can refund their money on day 1 once you've seen the code. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Q&A from TheJonathanStarkShow.com on YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

What would you say if someone asked you to work for free in exchange for referrals? ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

How to craft an XY Positioning Statement. Click here to read the companion article ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Scientific research into the negative psychological effects of trading time for money. Guest bio: Alice Lee-Yoon is a prospective phd student researching the link between time, money, and employee happiness. Her papers have been published in leading journals such as Current Opinion in Psychology and Academy of Management Journal, and her works have also been covered in Harvard Business Review, Psychology Today, and New York magazine. Related links: The Psychological Trap of Freelancing Making Seconds Count: When valuing time promotes subjective well-being People Who Choose Time Over Money Are Happier Time is Money When You’re Paid by the Hour How I Realized That Hourly Billing Is Nuts Hourly Billing Is Nuts: Essays On The Insanity Of Trading Time For Money ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Jason Resnick (aka @rezzz) shares how he went from burnt out jack-of-all-trades to in-demand specialist. Related Links Jason's Twitter Jason's website Transcript Jonathan Stark Hello and welcome to Ditching Hourly, I'm Jonathan Stark. Today I'm joined by guest Jason Resnick. Jason, welcome to the show. Jason Resnick Thanks for having me Jonathan. Jonathan Stark Can you tell folks who haven't heard of you before who you are and what you do? Jason Resnick Sure, as I said my name's Jason Resnick, Rezzz online as most people know who I am there. Yeah, I'm a web developer, I've been since the late 90's so showing my age a little bit. And yeah, and I've worked the full gamut from Fortune 50 companies to small agencies, largee agencies, consulting firms. And then I struck out on my own doing my own thing twice, the second time is in 2010 and I've been doing that full time every since. Jonathan Stark Excellent. So, the main reason, the impetus of this phone call is that ... I don't want to air too much dirty laundry but I was considering a platform migration from Drip to Convert Kit. So, anyone lisetening to this show I'm sure knows I sent out daily emails from a very heavy user of email automation, email marketing software, and it's one of my daily tools. So, small things really matter to me because it really adds up over time if there's small things that are annoying or not the way I'd like 'em or whatever the case may be. Jonathan Stark So, I was kind of, to be honest I was kind of ranting about this in a slack room that we're both in and as many times as we've talked in the past you were not pigeon holed in my mind as an email marketing platform guru the way that you are now. So, it was like we started talking and I was like, "Wow, Jason's got amazing answers to these questions. What's going on here?" So, tell me a little bit about ... And then, I came to realize oh this is your deal. So, could you tell people a little bit about your, I don't know I'll use the wrong word but sort of convert kit trusted partner or whatever it is and I think you're also a Drip one and that whole. Jason Resnick Yes. Jonathan Stark Talk a little bit about how that piece of it happened, the sort of partner thing. Jason Resnick Yeah. So, like I said I am a web developer. I focused ever since I started on my own I focused with e-commerce companies whether they were selling digital, physical products, membership websites, subscriptions, even non profits, basically anybody that was taking some sort of a transaction online. And as that grew and I really started to work, sort of fall into a specialty there where I was helping them decrease the time from the first interaction to their first purchase as well as creating repeat buyers and rating fans out of the customers. That was around I guess 2013, 2014 ish, I really started to look into email marketing. Because that was kind of, I mean obviously at that point in time it was out there, it was doing it, but it wasn't doing it at the level that it is now. But I was a web developer so when Drip came along I was taking a look at their API and to be able to do some of the things that Drip was able to do through the API meaning leveraging that subscriber data on the website making the experience on the website a little bit more personal based around whether you opened up the last email or not and these kind of things. And I mean you can do down the rabbit hole of personalization there but that was the genesis of where I am today because what I was doing with my clients as far as the development end of it people wanted more of the other stuff. They wanted the on site personalization. They wanted the beahavioral marketing that I was implementing more so than the custom development work that I was doing. 'Cause at the time and I still do this to this day is I sort of put that final 20% into their website. So, out of the box they install orld wcommerce or whatever. They get 80% of the way there, they see that it's working and getting traction and now they want to put the rest of their business into it whether that's inventory control or anything like that. So, I ... Jonathan Stark Can you sort of drill into that a little bit more? I want to make sure it's clear. So, when you say, "Put 80% into it", and you mentioned WooCommerce. I'm not a 100% sure I'm following so. Jason Resnick Sure. Yeah. So, I focus in on WooCommerce based customers and a lot of times the companies would install world commerce and find out that it was working for them just out of the box. They would be able to sell products, they would be able to do these things but then other areas of the business whether it was a brick and mortar business like I had one customer that was an ice cream shop that only could deliver to local areas because otherwise it would melt or whatever it is right? Jonathan Stark Yeah. Jason Resnick So, things like that right? Jonathan Stark So, that's what you meant when you said put the rest of the business into it? Jason Resnick Right. Jonathan Stark Okay I've gotcha. Jason Resnick So, but then I noticed a trend towards the behavioral marketing stuff, the email marketing, and automation, and things. And I decided that I could essentially do a lot of that stuff with Java Script code. I didn't need to be in the WooCommerce space, or Magento space, or any of that kind of stuff. So, I just gave it a shot and I basically said, "Okay I'll give this six months. I'm going to essentially slice that part of the business out and offer that as a service." And at that time it was just Drip and I wound up getting a couple of Shopify customers, a couple of Magento customers, and it worked out well. It was nice and easy for me to be able to implement that stuff over and over again. It was a platform that was working well. Jason Resnick Support was great too in the growing API there and all that other stuff. So, I was like, "Okay this is great". When they offered the consulting, I think they called it a certified consultant program or something like that, they knew who I was. 'Cause just in and around the community around Twitter and things like that I would jump into these conversations where Drip was mentioned and not to totally get into the weeds over there but I would just basically set up Zapya recipe to look for those mentions and then ping me in my own private Slack. So, I kind of jumped ahead of drip a lot of times in the conversations and I was just offer suggestions, or answers, or things like that because I was well versed in the platform. So ... Jonathan Stark Now is that ... Sorry to interrupt. Is that where these clients came from because they saw you and you put them ... Jason Resnick A lot of times. Jonathan Stark Okay. Jason Resnick Yeah. Yeah, a lot of times. Jonathan Stark So, basically you being helpful online in public brought you to the attention of Drip but also a bunch of clients who were evidently wrestling with these problems and then you just basically act like third party support in a way. Jason Resnick Exactly, exactly right. Jonathan Stark Awesome. Jason Resnick And they said, "Well we're opening up this consultancy platform, or certification program, or whatever you want to call it", which was really just a [inaudible] had to use Drip in the best way that they wanted you to use it. And so, I dove in. I was in the first co hort of those. I don't really think they have two of them. I'm not really sure how many co horts they had of that but it put me into the directory there. It put me into the cycle, the cog over there as well for custom requests that their customers were getting. So, they would feed leads over that they weren't going to handle but I could. So, that was the genesis of cover that service of my business and now that, over six months time became half of the revenue into my business. Jonathan Stark Yeah, it's like ... I mean it's not, I almost said it's crazy but it's not crazy. I see that all the time. So, people pick a platform, it could be ... I talked to Ben on an earlier episode from KnapSack about the same exact thing with [inaudible] space. I've talked to Kurt Elster with Shopify. And now you talking about this with Drip and I will point out that the one thing that's in common with all three stories is that you guys were all really early. Jason Resnick Yeah. I mean I think that was the biggest thing because me being able to just jump ahead of Drip in a lot of the conversations on the social web so to speak allowed Drip to see who I was. And so, and people had one off questions,, or they would complain, or whatever it could be. I'd answer it either with a screen shot, or a link, or a knowledge based article, or whatever, or my own blog posts 'cause I would write about these things as well. But it was really that Drip would then say, "Hey look I think Jason can handle this for you here's his Twitter handle or here is his emailand you can have a [inaudible] conversation with him to do that. So, I've always looked at platforms as a tool. I mean even WooCommerce and WordPress same thing. I grew up doing Java development and Ruby development. I moved to Ruby on Rails and I just looked at it as a tool for providing a solution to my clients. So, with that being said similarly I did the same thing with ConvertKit. Jonathan Stark So, before we got there. Yeah. So, I'm dying to hear this too, but before we go there I want to ... And maybe you can't answer this, maybe you don't know the answer to this question. But what gave you the confidence to make that leap? So, you had to decide at some point to set up that Zap and to jump onto Twitter and jump in front of Drip support. What ... And do you remember? Was there a thing that you said ... Once there a moment when you were like, "I think this is going to be big", or was it more like you were really into the platform at the time, it was fun and you just liked answering the questions or maybe some other third option? Or do you just have natural business instincts and you were just following the interest of the prospects that you had been talking to? Jason Resnick I think a mixture to be honest. I'd like to say that I had the foresight to see that this was going to work but I just knew how I ran my business in the past and how I was able to jump into the conversations and solve problems even in the WordPress space world. I made relationships with tools that I use on a daily basis. So, I just thought okay well I can do the same thing with Drip and whether or not they see me or not I'm still helping other people solve problems. And I was getting clients in that way too. So, for me it was semi intentional and not so much. I mean I loved the platform, I loved what it was able to do, and just being able to geek out and be able to tie two things together in a nice way that created a more human experience online for the visitors, or the customers, or whoever they are that was, I was all for that. Jonathan Stark Yeah that's fun. Alright cool. So, the transition to convert kit, what went down there? Jason Resnick Yeah so, what was funny was that when I decided for myself to use Drip I, it was real, that was a complete timing thing because I literally decided to go to put all my email contacts and everything into Drip then about a week later I saw a ConvertKit. It was really just a timing thing and I was like, "Oh that's interesting they're kind of the same thing almost", and from my point of view at that point. But then so I kind of had an ear to the ground with ConvertKit and I always watched it and all that. And I guess it was just the engineering behind Drip and what Rob and Derek were doing. Jason Resnick For me Drip made more sense for what I needed it for, for my clients in my own business, but I never ignored ConvertKit. I love with Nathan's all about, and his culture, and everything he does over there. But there would be leads that would come to me that would say all the right things but then say one thing that they didn't need that Drip was very good at but ConvertKit wasn't or vice versa. I would just direct them to one or the other. So when, the thing that I took a step back was from Drip was when Leadpages entered the picture. Because that was at the time where I had already made, half m business now was Drip related. I hadn't posted anything online but my website or anything that was Drip certified, this is a service that I offer, anything like that. In fact, I was like, "Okay I'm stepping back from this because I don't know what Drip's going to even look like. I just don't know." Jonathan Stark Well, let's pause there 'cause you just said that you never put the Drip thing on your website? Jason Resnick No. Jonathan Stark So, all of your leads were from social media? Jason Resnick Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Yeah, either social media or through the directory. Jonathan Stark Right okay. Good. Good. Alright. Good, I think that's a very important point for people listening. They're like, "Wow he didn't even update his website". Jason Resnick Yeah, I mean for me what's funny is I get less than 20% of my clients, my services clients through my website. I mean that's just the way that, I don't know, the nature of my business and how I've structured my referral engine and all these other things. I'm a one man show so I don't need a 100 clients either. So, I have my eight and I'm good so. Jonathan Stark Yeah, and what you do is so specific it's incredibly easy to recommend you. Somebody says, "Oh I'm thinking about migrating from ConvertKit to Drip or Drip to ConvertKit", immediately you're the only name that's going to pop into my head from now until infinity. So, right? So, it's like so easy. It's like ... Anyway, it's amazing. So, and I do want to call out one other thing that you alluded to which is that ... What you're talking about is a platform, especially what I refer to as a platform specialization and it has a lot of advantages and like all things it has pros and cons. And the, one of the cons is your fortunes are tied to the platform, hello flash developers. So, yeah so I just wanted to call that out explicitly. So, now you saw it. Lead page has acquired Drip. Rob and ... I'm sorry I don't know the other guys name. Jason Resnick Derek Rymer. Jonathan Stark Okay Rob and Derek, they're golden handcuffs, they're going to be out of the picture all of the sort of plates are in the air, what's going to happen? And if your whole business is built on top of Drip then of course that's going to give you pause, you're going to wonder what's going to happen. You're going to wonder what Lead Page is going to do with it. The guy that founded Lead Page has left so what is even going to happen here? How long until Sales Force buys them or whatever? Jason Resnick Right. Jonathan Stark So ... Jason Resnick I know all of those thoughts came into my head. I'm like okay does Google swoop in? I mean who's coming in right? So, yeah I literally took a step back and I even said to my wife I said, "Look this whole thing that I've been doing over the summer, carving out a part of my business now is falling apart, it could fall apart I don't know". So, I was just like, "Oh I want to take a step back". Still kind of just put it on cruise control, right? I still did what I did. I didn't really ramp up anything. Like I said I didn't put anything on the web on my site to talk about it. I kind of just wanted to see what would unfold there. And ... Jonathan Stark Now were you still doing this sort of answering bombing on Twitter or would you kind of? Jason Resnick Yeah. Yeah. I mean I still do. I do it today even. It's just, it's become a part of the process I guess. Jonathan Stark I've got to pause again 'cause that is a great point. That feeling, I can't think of ... I don't think ... I might of never met anybody who didn't enjoy helping someone else. I don't think I've ever met someone who didn't enjoy helping someone out whether it's introducing them to someone or giving them an answer to a question that they ... You know what kind of person wants to hold that kind of information back when they have it? I have expertise that can help this person who's in pain. It's just a natural human thing you want to do it but it acts as marketing. I almost don't want to call it marketing because that can turn people off but imagine if all day long "marketing your business" involved you helping people online? It's fun. Jason Resnick Right, yeah a 100%. I mean I come from, yeah I worked for the consulting firm where we worked for start ups and I literally ran the gamut of every tech coding standard of everything from Java, to PHP, to Com Objects, to .net, whatever language the company hired us for that's what we had to write. And so, I learned within a two year period I learned exactly what languages I liked and which languages I didn't and why I didn't and all that stuff. And I gravitated towards the open source sort of thing, that whole community and being able to help people and learn from other pieces of code, and all of that. Jason Resnick And so, I mean like I said I mean today one person had a problem with the faults in Drip and I'm like, "Okay just go to this screen under your account", and they're yellow and they can override them [inaudible 00:19:07]. It's part of the process. I saw it coming through my Slack channel and boom I had went and answered it and so on and so on. Who knows right? And so, for me it was just the way that ... I don't know. I've built my business on the back of being helped so why can't I help somebody else? Jonathan Stark Yeah, it's fun. It's like that's the thing it's fun. It is its on reward and oh by the way it ends up getting you money later. It's the best thing ever. Going out and helping people, I mean it almost gets cheezy like Tony Robbins level of, it's not karma it's more predictable than Karma. If you just help people all the time be better people are going to want to be around you and eventually someone's going to want to give you money and you can just fund this mission of helping people it's super kumbaya but I see it work over, and over, and over. Anyway. So, here you are, you've put all this work into this platform. You feel like you've built something. You're building some ... You've got some traction you're building repeat business then things are sort of thrown into uncertainty by the acquisition and what next? Jason Resnick Yeah, I mean the people that I worked closely with over at Drip specifically in and around the certification program, they were still there at that time. They were still saying all the right things and it still sort of felt comfortable but there was always this, it could be the New Yorker in me or whatever, but there's this thing in the back of my head where it's just like I don't know something's going to happen here. You know? Jonathan Stark Yeah. Jason Resnick But so I was just like alright I'll just do, I'm going to run my business the way I run my business. The same thing is always if WordPress went away, I chose WooComemrce. I mean in and around the WordPress space when I decided to niche down on WooCommerce that was before Automatic bought them. So, it was like I could have easily went with another plug in and been ground zero right? Jonathan Stark Yeah. Jason Resnick So ... Jonathan Stark Yeah, 'cause WooCommerce would have been the only game in town. Jason Resnick Right. So, I just thought back to that. I said, "Hey look it's not that LeadPages absorbs Drip and does nothing with it, and archives it in some [inaudible] backup somewhere. I mean you have MailChimp, you have other platforms, you have Infusionsoft, you have the knowledge, the process of what you do is there it's just a different tool to use it so. Jonathan Stark Yeah, the outcome that the client wants is still achievable with one of these other platforms. So, you understand the problem, you understand the motivation, you understand the value of it to the clients, and if the tool goes away, whatever. If your table saw goes away okay I'll use a chop saw. Jason Resnick Yeah right. Yup, a 100%. And so, I was just like okay I can't sit back. I put the page up on my site. I did what I do, right? And then, knowing that Rob and Derek they ... Rob had to hang around for a couple of years, for me that was like okay once Rob's gone from Drip I guarantee you this whole things going to change and you can see it over the course of the two years that he was there. As it got closer, and closer, and closer it was almost like ... I don't know. Like somebody pushing somebody off of the end of the high dive or something. It was just one of those things and there was certain people, certain key connections that I had, relationships that I had built they were left, they went on other ventures and things. So, I didn't really even have too many contacts over there anymore. Jonathan Stark Yeah, connections are starting to go away and I don't want it to turn into a bashing thing but Drip is definitely going, they've got a different strategy now they're going in a different direction. It's become quite obvious in the past week or two that they're focusing on e-commerce somehow and the language of the interface and everything is changing away from what I went to it for so whatever. They're making a decision ... Jason Resnick And that's fine. Yeah, and I had no problems with that. And but, for me and my business and my supporting my family and all that that's when I said, "Okay well let me go check out ConvertKit, let me se what they're all about". Nathan had reached out to me. I had corresponded with him through Twitter a few times. Jonathan Stark How'd that happen? Jason Resnick Just in the matter of the cocktail party that is Twitter rather. Jonathan Stark Yeah. Jason Resnick But he knew what I was doing with Drip he understood that and he was just kind of pinging me because I was doing the same thing with ConvertKit customers that I was doing with Drip where I would just set up that little notification system. And so, he was just curious and he reached out and he asked me a few questions just I guess just gauging really more along the lines of just research. What problems do you hear people talking about and things like that. So, just doing due diligence and all, and for me it was just like okay well there's no reason. I offer, I tell leads and clients that ConvertKit exists. Let me go through their certification program because [crosstalk] Jonathan Stark Yeah. I was going to say did it exist already or is he sort of feeling you out? Jason Resnick Yeah I mean I think it existed in part there and I guess what he was looking for was because he saw that I towed the line between business and engineering. Whereas most of the ConvertKit customers at the time, a couple of years back and it's still very much the same they're bloggers, they're creators, they're not necessarily hard core power API developers or anything like that that are trying to boost the business in that regard. So, whether or not he was doing that, but I looked at their directory and I felt that okay I could help in some way. I would be different than some of the other experts 'cause that's who they call them, experts because all of my knowledge, my developer background, my knowledge of API's and things like that. Jason Resnick So, I went through their program and met some nice people and similarly it just basically became another service that I ... It's the same, like I said, it's the same service it's just the different tools.So, now I offer the same thing it's just when a lead comes to me depending on, if they don't have either than I just do an evaluation and we find the best fit. Or if they come to me like some of the conversations that we had where you were thinking about switching. I've had those conversations with leads too. It's just the way I do business now. It's like I would say 75 to 80% of my revenue is driven by that part of my business. Jonathan Stark So, here's what's really cool about this is that of the folks that I've talked to on the podcast and elsewhere I can't think of another example that has, of another person who's such a clear example of multiple platforms of specializations at the same time. Usually they are either, I don't want to say overwhelming but it's fascinating that you're sort of dove tailing them and covering all of the bases in maintaining. I mean it's not, I'm not shocked by it but sort of kudos to you for keeping your eyes on the prize so to speak in that. You're not, yeah you're a Drip expert or you're a partner and a ConvertKit expert but that's not the point. All of the eggs that you put all in the same basket if there is one is delivering customer success to your clients in this particular way, these sorts of outcomes. And along the way yeah you're going to learn how to use the chop saw and the table saw and they don't really ... Jonathan Stark Well, here's a good question. Usually with the platform specialization the client does care. A lot of times they've already made the decision that they're going, that they either have decided or they're heavily favoring going with particular platform for particular thing. And then, they decide that oh we just need somebody to help us do it more quickly and efficiently, accurately, without stepping on land mines, that kind of thing. Is that the case, is that your experience or is it different in your case? Do people come to you and be like, "Hey we need a ConvertKit expert because we're definitely going to use ConvertKit or we're thinking about using ConvertKit." Or, do they come to you and say, "We're thinking about doing email marketing and integrating that with our website. What tools would you recommend?" Jason Resnick Yeah I think it's a mixture. I would say when I first started down this road it was more of the, "Hey we're thinking of email marketing what do you suggest?" Because they hadn't really doe it yet. Maybe they trialed one or the other or neither but they haven't really dove in. Now, that it's a little bit more mature I guess they already have an account with one or the other and they, either the accounts a mess or they're trying to do things that they haven't done before. Maybe they're just using it like an email blast and they have some lead [inaudible] and some forms but they want to integrate webinar selling. They want to integrate other tools into it. So, they haven't really gotten down that road and they're not really sure how to do all of that and that stuff scares them. So, I think that's, I mean it's a great question because I would definitely say that it's probably more of that now because of just the time that we live in. Jonathan Stark Yeah, that's wild. It's interesting. I'm sort of, I'm still chewing on this idea. I haven't got, I usually have an opinion on everything immediately. I'm still chewing on this one of multiple simultaneous platform specializations. And the pivot that Drip's doing, the timing is wild because there's going to be a window of opportunity that reminds me of GDPR or a thing like that where there's this window of opportunity where they're going to be a whole bunch of people who want an even more specific service. Which is, "I've been using this thing that they're not going to do anymore how do I get onto ConvertKit?" And that's even more specific and I don't know if ... You've probably got checklists of here's what you do, and here are the things to consider, and different size clients. So, I don't know if we've talked ... We haven't really, we've kind of been dancing around the idea of productize services. We've talked about it kind of obliquely but when we were chatting in Slack earlier ... Refresh my memory. As I recall you have a specific productized service for migrating from one platform to the other right? Jason Resnick Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Yup. Jonathan Stark And how do you ... So, in the context of this show the listeners are used to me talking about productized services and I have a, I think I have a overly specific definition of it so let me just float that to you in case that's different than yours and then you can tell me how much you match up to it if at all. Jason Resnick Sure. Jonathan Stark So, to me a productized service is a relatively fixed scope service that you offer at a published price usually typically on your website. So, people would be able to come to your website and be like in your case be like, "Drip to ConvertKit migration 10 thousand dollars click here for more information, or click here to buy, or click here to apply, or whatever the call to action is". And that's just a generic sort of catch all definition. You haven't even put tons of stuff on your website if I remember correctly. You don't even have navigation to this product on your website. You're much more of a word of mouth/social media linking kind of guy it sounds like. Jason Resnick Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Yup. Jonathan Stark So, how does it work for you? What's your experience? Well, a whole bunch of questions. I suppose it would be interesting to give people a brief idea of process just so they can kind of wrap their heads around it. 'Cause you're a web developer, tons of developers are listening to this show and what's different way back in your experience of doing custom projects and client work? Just high touch one off custom projects where you're learning a new language to do the thing where you're just constantly on a learning curve you're never off the learning curve. Jason Resnick Right. Jonathan Stark How does that compare to doing "the same thing" over, and over, and over for clients? Jason Resnick Yeah, it's very different except for the fact that when I productized my web development services when I was doing, just I was a custom WooCommerce developer. I productized everything else around it. So, in other words we had weekly scrum calls which it's not the agile scrum I just called them scrum calls. They were just 15 minute catch up calls at the end of the week. Basically client communication, what the deliverables were, all of those things. I basically productized every piece of the puzzle other than the middle part. And then, the middle part was completely custom. So, similarly ... Jonathan Stark Meaning you created systems for all of the communications and all of the process and all of that stuff. Jason Resnick Right, how to buy from me, how to pay, all of that stuff was there and it was just really that middle piece of who you are and what you do is different right? So, similarly I did the same thing, I do the same thing with for example the migration service. The thing that is the custom part is everybody's business is different, everybody's set up is completely different. Some people have a naming convention for tags some people don't, most people don't. Jonathan Stark Yup guilty. Jason Resnick Most people ... I can't even tell you. Basically there's three kinds of users that I've found for any platform whether it's ConvertKit, Drip, or whatever. It's usually a power user like somebody that writes liquid code in their emails and basically understands the underpinnings of the platform and uses it to the best of it's ability which is a rare, they're rare. Then there's the middle ground folks who blast emails to segments, they have tagging around things, they have lead magnets, they use rules in amongst the rules to be if this that and that. They have some basic work flows. Those are usually the messiest type of accounts and they're often the accounts that like you were saying before the checklist comes in handy because they don't know, they can't remember all of the corners of the business until they switch. They're like, "Well this thing isn't working. I don't know about this thing." Jonathan Stark Yeah, it's brutal. Jason Resnick And then, the third one is people that are just the beginners. They're just like, "I signed up for Drip based off of some promotion or ConvertKit off of some promotion and I just blast my entire list every Thursday". And they have some tagging whatever, it's just really basic. So, I can usually get that picture just by logging in and then I could kind of go down that road. I basically have this discovery. Jonathan Stark Is this before they have paid or after? Jason Resnick This is after. Jonathan Stark Okay. Jason Resnick Alright. So, the service in of itself is that they send me an application of their account and I see if it's a good fit. There's different data points that I look for like subscriber count, and how well do they know the business, who am I talking to, those kind of things. I've heard you talk about this [inaudible] audience before as far as the project, I call it a project brief. And then, if it's a good fit then I say, "Okay this is great we can move forward basically here is, you pay we have a kick off call and we dive in". Jonathan Stark So, let me just call something out there. You understand this already but I just want to call it out which is that someone could fail that test yes? Jason Resnick Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Jonathan Stark Yeah. So, that is the thing that is not obvious to lots of people when I'm standing on my soap box and telling the world what to do. The thing that a lot of people will scratch their heads because they're like, "But it'll blow up in my face because of these reasons". And the thing that they'll often miss is that you can say no to the ones that you can tell are going to blow up in your face. 'Cause most people are so, they don't get a lot of leads and they're sort of like not living hand to mouth but they just don't have a lot of leads so when a lead comes in they'll do whatever they have to do to try to close it which is a very different mindset to what you're describing and living. Which is that, look I do this thing, it's a relatively fixed scope, that's the key and if the person's scope isn't going to fit into what I offer here I'm going to say no. So, when people are like, "Well I can't charge only two thousand dollars for that". Because some clients will have a massive rats nest of problems and those are the clients you filter out. Jason Resnick Right. Jonathan Stark Sorry to interrupt I just had to ... Jason Resnick No, I would say no is a powerful word. I talk to a lot of freelancers and when they tell me that they're afraid to either put their price online or put a filter online that they're leads will dry up. I say, "That's a good thing, then you're only getting tire kickers". I mean who want tire kickers that they haven't really thought about their project? And part of my project brief is I want them to have stopped and think about what you want for five minutes. I don't want to just have a conversation, get on the phone with somebody because you had a conversation at a barbecue over the weekend. Think about what this does for your business. And so ... Jonathan Stark A client with no goals is unsatisfiable. Jason Resnick Right. Jonathan Stark So, that's [crosstalk] Jason Resnick Well unrealisticals. Jonathan Stark Sure that's bad too. Jason Resnick I mean just a case in point, some of the leads that leads that I say no immediately to are some of the folks that come in and they say, "I have 300 subscribers and I want to make a half a million dollars in six months". I say, "Okay, how's that happening?" Jonathan Stark I want that too. Jason Resnick Right. Like what are you selling a hundred thousand dollar service? I mean I don't know but. So, yeah and I say, "Well those goals are unrealistic". So, it's just that project brief for me is definitely my profit saver. I don't want to get a phone call if somebody hasn't thought about it. I don't want to hash out their problems. I want them to know what their problems are and that they're coming to me for a solution. So, what I do on the back of that kick off call and it's really a quick call. It's really just to get access if they haven't given it to me already. I usually put them through an onboarding process, an email that just goes out and says, "Here this is what I need from you". And then, the kick off call is really just, "Hey what are you struggling? Why are we doing this thing? I want to hear it in their voice. I want to see it on their face." Jonathan Stark Critical. Critical. Yup. Jason Resnick To understand really what they're struggling with so that I know whether to just stay away from certain things or gravitate towards other things. So, that's what that kick off call is critical for. So, then once I dive in and I kind of basically spend a half an hour in their account to see if I can get the majority or understand the majority of what they're doing in their account so that I could put the process in place to migrate them. Jonathan Stark Yeah, and it also gives you that convo, that real time. And you do video usually? Jason Resnick Yes. Jonathan Stark Yeah, so that conversation. You getting a lot of ... You're marinating yourself in their situation, in their goals, their wants, their needs, their dreams, their fears, their nightmares, and you're like, "Okay I'm going to feel for this". See, here's how I look at it. I'm putting words in your mouth. Here's how I look at it. When I do that what I'm doing is I'm learning as much about them as I can as quickly as I can so that I can make what I believe are good recommendations. Because there's a million ways to skin the cat and I'm not talking ... I'm talking about things maybe a little bit more broad than migration but still I mean they've got to be complicated. And you get to a point ... Jason Resnick Some are yeah. Jonathan Stark Yeah, and sometimes there's a fork in the road and you as the expert there's pros and cons to both choices. But if you know the person, I don't know, something about the person ... If you know something about the person, or the business, or the goals, or something, you'd be like, "Oh option A is definitely, for these guys option A is the no brainer". Jason Resnick Right yeah. And that's the thing too is even on the socials, you hear Drip and ConvertKit in the same breath all the time. And I tell people this all of the time it's not apples to apples they are two different platforms, they're two different applications. It's more like an apple to an orange. One can do 80%o of what the other does. So how important is that other 20% to you and if it is that important is it that important that we either move, or do we find another solution to it, or what? Jonathan Stark Yup. Is there a work around? Is the switching cost worth it? Yeah. Yeah. Jason Resnick So, and that's really what that piece of that discovery is all about is to figure out exactly what are we moving, how are we moving it, and that fixed scope that I have really comes in and around the implementation side of things. So, if they, most people have three main forms, three or four main forms. If they have tons, like I've run into people that have 30 different lead magnets. I'm like, "Okay well we can either have one form and dictate the lead magnet that shoots out of that form or some streamline". If they're really insistent on having this big thing, of multiple forms or whatever, and I said, "ook that's not in this scope. I'll do this within the scope and this is an added cost. This could be a phase two kind of thing whatever." Jonathan Stark So, again I'm going to put words in your mouth. You would find this out early right very early? Jason Resnick Yes. Jonathan Stark So, they've paid you. You've had a kick off meeting, you've spent a half an hour on a phone call with them. Or actually you didn't say. How long is the phone call usually? Jason Resnick The phone call is usually about a half hour. Jonathan Stark Okay. And then a half an hour poking around in their account and you could find at this point that they've got 300 forms set up. Jason Resnick Right. Jonathan Stark And you email them or you call them or whatever. So, you make a recommendation, "We should probably pair this down. There's probably better ways to handle this and to be more efficient for you." "No, no, no, we need 300 forms." You're like, "I'm going to refund your money because this is not going to work". Jason Resnick Yeah, I've had the difficult conversations. I've never had to refund anybody but it's just it's more often than that this is how they knew how to do it and they didn't know how to do it the other way, or a better way, or a more efficient way, or a more manageable way. So, they appreciate the fact that I'm coming at them to try to make their life easier and they're like, "Oh I didn't know I could do it that way that's great". Jonathan Stark Yeah, usually they'll agree with you yes. Jason Resnick Right. Jonathan Stark Yes. Jason Resnick So, which makes my life easier and that's a part of that ... I'll be honest over the years I've been doing this almost a decade now full time for myself. That project brief has evolved where I have questions in there that are questions that could tell me if they are more receptive to suggestions or not. So, and that's part of that failure test is if they don't answer those questions in an appropriate way then I'm like, "Okay that's a red flag". So yeah, and that's really how it works and once we decide on some strategy then I just get to work and implement their migration and move forward. Jason Resnick I mean I have other productized services around that, things like evergreen newsletters or webinar implementations, things like that that are more really just that's the repeatable thing where it's the same thing. Maybe the integration's different but a webinar is a webinar. You have the primary to show up and then you have the follow up after it and that's the same sort of sequence and you're just directing people to a certain CTA, Call To Action. So, other than that otherwise the services that are offered are more on a recurring monthly basis where I'm helping them. I'm being their marketing engine so to speak I call it. Is because I help them build that foundation for their marketing and I help them with their strategy for their business. I don't do Facebook ads or any of that front facing stuff but I basically ... You feed your top of the funnel into it and this thing handles it. Jonathan Stark Yup. Okay. So, man we could two more episodes. We could do an entire episode on the project brief. We could do an entire episode on how you cross sell the services later. I'm super curious about that. But I think the point of this episode the thing I really want to get across to people is the sort of nuances and the day to day of doing productized services instead of one off constantly different custom projects for different kinds of people all the time using different tools. And you're such a great example of both extremes 'cause you are learning new languages to death. I haven't come across a lot of people who can say that they would learn .net to take a project on and then later in their career they're like, "I do Drip to ConvertKit migrations". [inaudible] You know what I mean? Jason Resnick Yeah. Jonathan Stark It's like the two polar ... Jason Resnick Yeah, I haven't run into [inaudible] either. Jonathan Stark Yeah, these are the two opposite ends of the spectrum. So ... Jason Resnick For me it's ... I'll be honest the, I got burned out basically in 2011, 2012 bit time burned out. Where it was essentially a month after I proposed to my now wife. I said I was going back to work at a full time job because I felt like I was chasing my tail. I was doing a lot of Ruby on Rails projects, I was doing a lot of custom PHP projects, and it was like every three to six months I was going back to a technology and relearning what I missed because I wasn't on that kind of a project. And that's when I mean she showed support in me that I took completely unexpected and she said to me that, "Well that's now what you want to do". "I know that. So, and you know that so we'll figure it out one way or the other." I'm like, "Wait a second what?" She's the non gambler, the rock, I want to know what's going on kind of thing, and she's telling me this. Jason Resnick So, I was like alright I've got to figure this out. And that's when I first pivoted my business the first time to really focus in on one technology so I wasn't chasing my tail. I could become that expert in there. And so, now I just I niched down a couple of more times obviously but yeah I mean learning different platforms it's a tool. And yeah sure I know Drip a lot better than I know ConvertKit. I know ConvertKit very well by using it for the past couple of years but at the same time it's just, it's those little subtle nuances that at the beginning can get you into trouble. If you don't know that one platform can do something that the other doesn't and you suggest that other one that doesn't do that thing and then you find out that you can't do that that's where you get into problems. Jonathan Stark Yeah, painting yourself into a corner that's the ... Jason Resnick It's the relationships with support teams and internal people on those platforms that really make a huge huge difference. Jonathan Stark Yeah, that's sort of a surprise that's come out of this conversation for me. I wasn't expecting to get so much information about platform specialization but you are really really calling out all of the highlights, sort of the pros and cons of how to do it, what the important parts are. So, and honestly for developers a platform specialization is I mean I can't bring myself to say the word easy but it's less scary let's put it like that. It tends to be less scary for people than a vertical specialization where somebody says, "So I'm just going to build [inaudible] for dentists or I'm just going to build websites for dentists and I'm going to get amazing at servicing the dental industry. 'Cause my parents are both dentists. I know everything about being dentists and I love building websites so I'm just going to just specialize on dentists." People have a really really ... From experience I can tell you that people have a really hard time settling on a vertical specialization because they feel like they're throwing a dart, they're not committed to it, if it doesn't work immediately they switch to a different one. Jonathan Stark And the other thing people consider generally as a horizontal specialization like, "I'm going to be awesome at PHP or I'm going to be awesome at Rails". Rails is almost a platform, it depends on your buyer. But let's say PHP, I'm going to be amazing at Amazon Aurora or Lambda, or something really under the hood. And they just love the technology and they want to go deep on it. Platform specialization kind of like splits the difference and for people who are not savvy marketers but still want to focus, and still want to focus on a technology end goal. Jonathan Stark Platform specialization can be really good if you get in early like we talked about, if you develop relationships with the people inside of the platform which you just mentioned, and if the ... And your eyes are open to changes in the platform that can negatively affect your business. I think if you keep all of those things in mind a platform specialization might be, for a non trivial percentage of people listening to the show I think a platform specialization is a very interesting way to go when you're trying to get off of that hamster wheel and stop learning a new language every three to six months. Jason Resnick Yeah, I mean for me the productized services that I can, for lack of a better term it's basically the buying a box off a shelf. I don't have to worry about the vertical it is what it is, a migration. I don't care whether you're an e-commerce company, you're a coach, you're who knows, you sell physical products somewhere. That's irrelevant. Jonathan Stark It doesn't change the scope. Jason Resnick Right. Right. But the recurring services that I do for Monthly is vertical. I only stick to established online businesses that have, whether they're e-commerce membership sites, sales subscriptions, those kind of things. Because that's the business that I understand the most. I've been doing that, I've been working in and around that business for 15 plus years so I undertand that the most. If somebody came to me and said they were a speaker or a ... Jonathan Stark University. Jason Resnick Right. And they wanted that sort of recurring service. I couldn't help them as much in the marketing aspect because I wouldn't know what to expect. I'd have to do a lot of research around their market and it would be less profitable. So, not saying that I couldn't do that, those things but at the price point that I'm at this is what I understand and this is who I can serve and help the best. Jonathan Stark Right. So, to the dear listener. You know that sort of eye rolling commiseration that happens on places like Clients From Hell or just whatever at a meet up when you're having coffee with friends and you say, "Oh well there's always surprises on projects", that could be your fault. Because you're constantly doing something completely new. Jason Resnick Right. Right. Jonathan Stark And of course there are going to be way more surprises if you're essentially almost changing profession every client. "I'm going to be a plumber this week, and then I'm going to be a garbage man this week, and then I'm going to be a roofer the week after that, and then I'm going to work for Uber." Jason Resnick You're always a beginner. Jonathan Stark You're always a beginner. Jason Resnick Right yeah. Jonathan Stark It's like this sugar high of learning at first because you're like you. I love learning and maybe you're tapped into a client in a new industry or you're learning a new language and I always wanted to learn React. These guys want React. I've never done it before but I know JavaScript. I can hit the ground running. I can get up to speed over the weekend. Well, what that leads to is these horrible surprises that turn into scope creep. And yeah, so it's sort of a, not a self fulfilling prophecy but it's depressingly predictable from the outside. Jason Resnick Yeah, and it's hard for me. If I had to keep switching like that I think it would be harder for me to sell a recurring service because then I can' tell them when certain things would happen or be expecting. What are they going to get at the end of month one versus month six, those kind of things. I know what that looks like now. I mean what I do for my customers I can say, "Okay this is all a low hanging fruit. As we ramp up and we kind of clean you up a little bit and we get that foundation built over the first couple of weeks these are some of these other things we could chop off and you could start to see a return pretty easily." Jason Resnick So, as a beginner I don't know that I had that knowledge. I don't know that I would have been able to do that stuff. So, I think the vertical is for me anyway, it's crucial to specialization. Like I said, the smaller migrations in webinar implementations and those lead magnets, and all of those kind of boxes that you pull off the shelf for me makes it easier for somebody to work with me first without the commitment of their recurring. And then I sell them, whether the relationship works or not on that first go, it's easier to sell them on the recurring later. Jonathan Stark Yeah, if you hit a home run it's, "How do we give this guy more money?" Jason Resnick Right. Jonathan Stark Yeah, of course. So cool. We should probably wrap and get into our weekends. I know we're both free for the weekend here. But thank you so much for ... That was ... I knew this was going to be good but this is even better than I expected so thanks a ton for sharing all of that experience with us. Jason Resnick Yeah no, thanks for having me. I appreciate it for sure. Jonathan Stark So, where should people go to find out more about you online? Jason Resnick Sure. You can find me Rezzz.com, that's with three Z's, R-E-Z-Z-Z.com or @Rezzz on Twitter. Jonathan Stark Three Z's also? Jason Resnick Yup. Jonathan Stark Alright folks, that's it for this week. I'm Jonathan Stark and I hope you join us again next time for Ditching Hourly. Bye. Jonathan Stark Would you like to learn how to get paid what you're worth? How about selling your expertise and not your labor? We work through all of this together in the pricing seminar. Pre registration starts soon and you can sign up to be on the first to know when early bird pricing is announced at ThePricingSeminar.com that URL again is ThePricingSeminar.com, hope to see you there. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The benefits of offering a productized service. In this episode of Ditching Hourly I'm joined by guest Ben Manley. Ben is the founder of Knapsack, a web design firm that offers an laser focused productized service that allows his team to deliver beautiful websites to their clients in one day. Ben shares his background and explains in detail how he went from a generalist design freelancer who would do anything from Photoshop comps to theater sets, to running a highly specialized web design firm that generates incredible word-of-mouth referrals. As a past client of Ben's, I can tell you from experience that his process is stellar and delivers a huge amount of value in a very short time. Talking Points Transitioning from hourly billing to project based prices The benefits of specializing The importance of having a healthy margin Designing with the client over your shoulder How to ask for good design feedback Capitalizing on a platform specialization Preventing scope creep on fixed price services Related Links Knapsack The site Ben build for Jonathan (password is 'mobile') StoryBrand Breaking the Time Barrier by Mike McDerment and Donald Cowper ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Business valuation expert John Warrillow explains the benefits of making your business more valuable as an acquisition target, even if you have no intention of selling it. Talking Points The two most common reasons business owners consider selling their business Why it makes sense to build your business to sell even if you don't want to sell The difference between growing value and growing revenue Why productizing makes it easier to charge upfront for services Quotable Quotes "I see a lot of freelancers 'start a company', but they really just created a job."—JW "There's a difference between 'specialization' and 'productization'."—JW "Focus on a very small niche and become dominant in that space."—JW "People say 'Revenue is vanity, profit is sanity,' but neither is the value of your company."—JW "If you're just a hodgepodge of a bunch of undifferentiated services, an acquirer could easily go after your revenue without buying you."—JW "The very same things that make your business valuable and sellable, are also the things that will make your business fun to run forever."—JW "Can the business succeed without you?"—JW "Employees thrive on repetition."—JW "Every service offering you add grows the complexity of your business exponentially."—JW "Take a half-day and think about the one thing you do better than anybody else."—JW "Billing after services are rendered creates a 90-day negative cashflow cycle."—JW Related Links Built to Sell (the book) Built to Sell (the podcast) Value Builder eMyth Revisited John's Bio John Warrilow is an entrepreneur, podcast host, and best-selling author with over 20 years of research experience into the small and medium business market. He has started and exited four companies, including a quantitative market research business that was acquired by the Corporate Executive Board in 2008. His best-selling book, Built to Sell: Creating a Business That Can Thrive Without You, was rewarded by both Fortune and Inc. Magazine as one of the best business books of 2011. He is also founder and host of the successful podcast, Built to Sell Radio. Recently, John has founded The Value Builder System, which helps business owners and advisors assess the value of their company. With over 35,000 business owners and advisors having taken the Value Builder Questionnaire, this system has helped reassess and raise the company’s value by up to 71%. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Veteran recruiter Norman Lieberman shares hard won war stories from 37 years of cold calling. Talking Points You have to take control of the conversation in the first 20 seconds The importance of finding out the client's problem before you even think about selling anything to them Why talking about your company, product, or process is worse than useless Why to lead with a question and then shut up What you can learn from a cold-calling master, even if you'll never do them yourself How to bring prospects back to what they want accomplished if they start talking about price too early in the conversation How to pull a relationship together out of thin air How to anchor your high price against the much higher cost of doing nothing How to respond to a client who asks if you guarantee your work How to make buyer's eye glaze over (and what to do instead) Links Norman's site Norman's email Learn Your Lines Jill Konrath on TBOA The Secret of Selling Anything The Red Balloon ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

You know you want your customers, employees, and communities to be engaged, but what exactly does ‘engagement’ mean? Scott Gould, author of The Shape of Engagement joins me to talk about how independent software developers can sow the seeds engagement. Talking Points Why engagement matters What engagement is The three levels of engagement The three processes that make up the cycle of engagement Real-world examples of how typical marketing activities fit in the cycle of engagement Simple steps software professionals can take to understand why their work matters to their clients Guest Bio Scott Gould is an author and popular speaker who champions the cause of real engagement in a world where so much is only skin-deep. As a management advisor he has helped some of the world’s biggest brands and oldest organisations get their customers, employees and communities highly engaged around their mission. Related Links Scott’s website Scott’s book "The Shape of Engagement" Trainer Weekly by Reuven Lerner How to Fascinate by Sally Hogshead TED Talk by Joe Pine Social Proof Derek Sivers Kai Davis ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Freshbooks CEO Mike McDerment joins me to discuss his book Breaking the Time Barrier. Talking Points The importance to talking to your clients Looking for ways to help your audience How to push yourself out of your comfort zone Why hourly billing is a bad idea Quotable Quotes “In one year, I worked 19 days and brought in $200,000.”—MM “I think the constant paranoia of not knowing something is healthy.”—MM “Your peers are great for support but you should look for an advisor who is a reach for you.”—MM “If you think your clients are the enemy, you’re so far off ”—MM “Sitting around and saying ‘It’s hard!’ is not going to get you anywhere. Figure it out.”—MM “Hourly billing pits you against your clients.”—MM “When your billing by the hour, everyone is staring at their shoes instead of where they want to go.”—JS “You have to choose your clients.”—MM “It’s a flag for me if my client going to tell me how I charge for my work.”—MM “Let’s stop talking about hours. What is it you want when I’m done?”—MM “I want to know that I can be successful when I'm done.”—MM Related Links Breaking The Time Barrier Freshbooks Bureau of Digital Give it five minutes Mike’s Bio Mike McDerment is co-founder and CEO of FreshBooks, the world’s #1 accounting software in the cloud for self-employed professionals and their employees. Prior to FreshBooks, Mike ran his own design firm where he accidentally saved over an invoice and realized an unmet need in the market. In 2003, he started FreshBooks from his parents’ basement in Toronto. Since then, over 10 million people have used FreshBooks to save time billing, look professional, and collect billions of dollars. Mike and his team dedicate themselves to executing extraordinary experiences everyday for customers who want to focus on what they love, not their paperwork. Mike has also authored “Breaking The Time Barrier,” a guide to using value-based pricing to unlock your true earning potential which has been downloaded more than 250,000 times. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Guest Maggie Patterson describes how she more than doubled her income by ditching hourly billing. Talking Points How hourly billing decreases your income The value of creating clearly defined service packages The benefits of systematizing your service delivery The magic of naming process steps How taking control of the client engagement increases your fees The importance of saying no to clients who are a bad fit How productized services make the sales process easier Quotable Quotes "If you're saying yes to everyone, that's a bad thing."—MP "If your close rate is off, you're either talking to the wrong person or your proposals are off."—MP "We're always going to make more money with a flat rate. Always."—MP Maggie's Bio Maggie Patterson is a communications strategist, business growth consultant, and the principal consultant at Scoop Studios. With two decades of experience, Maggie has spent her entire career in client services and has been a successful entrepreneur for over 10 years. Today, she works with online and small business owners to help them implement smart strategies for business growth and to maximize the impact of their digital marketing. She’s the host of the Small Business Boss podcast, has been on stage at events such as New Media Expo, Podcast Movement, and the Conquer Summit, and her work has been featured in leading publications such as Entrepreneur.com, Fast Company and Virgin.com. Related Links Scoop Studios Website
 Small Business Boss Website
 Instagram
 Scoop Studios Business Facebook Page
 Small Business Boss Facebook Page
 ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Guest David A. Fields shares a gold mine of practical advice on outreach, positioning, building authority, trust building, and more. Talking Points How to maximize your impact as a consultant How to "fish where the fish are" How to identify ugent problems that your clients are dying to pay you to fix for them How to win business even when you're up against giant competitors How to build trust in a five minute conversation Quotable Quotes "It's about the finding the right people, right problem, right solution, right time."—DAF "Winning business is easy when you're fishing where the fish are."—DAF "If you don't hear back from clients, you're operating where there's a lack of urgency."—DAF "If you're not winning as many clients as you'd like to, you have to make some changes."—DAF "You have to make your practice about the client, not about you."—DAF "Every time I have a conversation with someone who looks like my prospective clients, I learn something."—DAF "If you're smart and your willing to pick up something new, the sky's the limit."—DAF "Asking your client about hypotheticals will give you bad data. You have to ask them about the past."—DAF "What you differentiate yourself on are reliability and credibility."—DAF "Your whiz bang super unique process is likely to scare off clients."—DAF "Fees are the trickiest part of consulting."—DAF "There's more money to be had if you're solving a bigger problem for a bigger company."—DAF "You don't have to work with big companies to win big business."—DAF "You can build trust fairly quickly by living up to small promises."—DAF "Targeting aspirations is a longer sale than targeting problems."—DAF Related Links David's website David's book Guide To Winning Clients Dale Carnegie quote about fishing with strawberries and cream Oren Klaff's power frame concept from his book Pitch Anything Gartner Hype Cycle Transcript Jonathan S: 00:00 Hello and welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today I am joined by David A. Fields. David is the co-founder of Ascendant Consulting, is a true consultants' consultant who works with selling boutique consulting firms worldwide, a best selling author, speaker, consultant and mentor. David also heads the Ascendant Consortium whose clients are who's who of the business world. David, welcome to the show. David F: 00:22 Thank you so much, Jonathan. It is fabulous to be here. Jonathan S: 00:25 It's really my pleasure. So for folks who maybe haven't come across you before, could you just give people a crash course and who you are and what you do? David F: 00:33 Sure, and imagine that, there are people who are not aware of me. It happens every day. 95% of my business right now, Jonathan, is actually working with other consulting firms. So whether they are solo practitioners, or small boutiques up to, call it $25 million, I work with a few folks that are larger, but mostly 25 million and under, down to the folks that maybe have just started a practice and are just sort of cracking six figures. And so while I have corporate clients, most of my work now is with the consulting firms that are trying to win those corporate clients. And that's what I spend my days doing, is helping them accomplish that goal. Jonathan S: 01:12 Excellent. So I've got your new book, it's called the Irresistible Consultant's Guide to Winning Clients. Thank you very much for that. And in it, it's broken into six sections, six steps to unlimited clients and financial freedom. And there's a section that I'm particularly interested in, so I think it would be a great place to start, and that is this section on, I think it's maximizing your impact. Am I- David F: 01:37 Sure. Jonathan S: 01:38 Okay. Cool. So can you sort of give ... There's a bunch of sort of sub-sections here. Could you give us a kind of overview and then we'll drill into individual questions? David F: 01:48 Sure. The one thing I would ... Let me preface this with, because this section, which on maximizing impact which is sort of step two, but it's important to understand that this comes before you start building visibility. A lot of consultants, a lot of freelancers want to get out there and just get known by everyone they can. David F: 02:09 And before you run out and try to spread the word about yourself, you need to make sure that the word will be listened to, that you're not just out there talking, you're saying words that people want to hear. And that's impact, that's maximizing your impact. So that's where this fits in. It's very early in the process, making sure your message is going to resonate. David F: 02:29 And basically, maximizing impact just comes down to a few pieces. You need to talk with the right people, about the right problem, offer the right solution in a way that's compellingly articulated at the right time. So right people, right problem, right solution and right time. Of those four, time is darn hard to figure out. David F: 02:50 And so I tend to say you know what, put that one aside because if you talk to enough of the right people, about the right problem, and offer the right solution, then you don't need to worry about the timing. Some of them will be ready to move and want your services. So that's it. That's really the core of maximizing impact. Jonathan S: 03:10 Excellent. So you have a great graph, it got six quadrants in it where you talk about the awareness of ... your sort of the clients' awareness, or the prospects' awareness of a problem- David F: 03:25 Sure. Jonathan S: 03:26 ... or opportunity, and their urgency around that. And this is a different way to describe something that I talked about here a lot. So I wonder if ... It is kind of visual, but I wonder if you can break it down. David F: 03:40 Yeah, sure. I can describe it. As a matter of fact, all your listeners can sort of build it for themselves very quickly and easily if they want. This is useful, so it's interesting you pulled this out. This is one piece I didn't mention inside maximizing impact, which is this idea that I call fishing where the fish are, and business is so much easier if you're fishing where the fish are. David F: 03:59 So here's how you figure out where the fish are. I would say regular consultants, they do two by two charts, but we're super sexy here, so we do a sextant chart. You're going to draw a horizontal line, and then instead of bisecting it with one line, you're going to trisect it with two vertical lines. David F: 04:18 So now what you have is sort of six boxes, three on the top, three on the bottom. So that vertical axis is really is the client aware of the problem that you solve? So at the top, you might say yes, all those three boxes at the top are yes. And the three boxes at the bottom are no, they're not aware of the problem that you ... they have the problem. David F: 04:38 They may have the problem, but they're not aware that they have the problem. So yes or no. And then across the top is the urgency that they have, how urgent is their desire to solve the problem that you can solve for them. So all the way on the left might be no urgency. They have no urgency at all to solve it. In the middle is some or maybe tomorrow, or maybe in the future, and then all the way to the right is now, they want to solve that problem right away. David F: 05:09 So now what you have, if you've drawn this out, is you've got a box in the top right where your prospects are aware of the problem that they have that you solve, and they urgently want to solve that problem. That spot, that box is what I call fishing where the fish are. And when you play in that box, this business is actually very easy. David F: 05:31 Winning business is easy because you're not trying to convince someone to work with you, you're not trying to tell them to work on the problem, you're not trying to say, “Hey, you really need me even though you don't realize it,” both of which are quite difficult. You work with people who know they've got the problem and they're saying, “Yeah, I need help.” And boy, isn't it easy to sell a consulting gig when someone's saying, “Hey, I got a problem and I need help.” So were you able to sketch that out? Did that work for you, Jonathan? Jonathan S: 05:58 Yes, that does, mentally. That's a perfect picture. Can you describe for a second what it might feel like to someone who is not fishing where the fish are? So let's say someone has a ... Let's say someone is aware of a problem that's just epidemic proportions. So, for me, just to instantiate it a little bit, for me, I was doing consulting in the mobile web space for a long time. Jonathan S: 06:23 And you could just go ... almost any site you went to on iPhone was just garbage for the first couple of years, so I could see this as a problem like there is no way this is good for the conversion, this has to be hurting their traffic. This has to be causing a really bad bounce rate on mobile so on and so forth. Jonathan S: 06:41 But it was surprising to me at the time this going to about like 2010 that so many people, prospective clients with these terrible experiences didn't really see it as a problem or they want aware there was a problem, because unlike their audience, or their customer, or their users, they weren't on their own website on their phone all the time trying to get things done. Jonathan S: 07:05 So it's just wasn't ... it just didn't raise the level of consciousness. So I could run around beating the drum all day long saying, "If your business isn't mobile friendly, you're going out of business," sort of Chicken Little Approach. David F: 07:16 Yeah, how'd that work for you? Jonathan S: 07:17 Not that great. Early on, I magically got clients because there were early adopters who saw the problem. And my estimation of the situation is that over time, all of the early adopters, and then the sort of cutting edge people, and then the late adopters solved ... they got someone to fix it for them. And we started to get down to the late adopters, and then laggards. And it became a really hard sell, because they just didn't see it as a problem and still don't. Jonathan S: 07:48 So it's really hard. And there's a line in the book that made me laugh out loud, because I've heard it so many times where a student of mine, or someone on my mailing list, we'll be inside of a client organization, and maybe have done one project. And while they were in there, they were just appalled by the inefficiency of a laundry list of other things that they could easily automate, or at least, you know, not that it wouldn't be a lot of work, but they knew exactly how to automate it. Jonathan S: 08:16 Like, “Hey, I could automate this whole system, and you wouldn't need this entire department,” And still find themselves extremely frustrated, sort of ... it is kind of this Chicken Little thing, where you're almost saying ... it's kind of like walking up to someone in a Starbucks and saying ... as a personal trainer, walking up to someone in Starbucks and being like, "Hey, you're super fat, you want me to help you with that?" It's the wrong timing. It's just terrible. Obviously, it's terrible. David F: 08:45 It is. But now, I have got to ask, what was the line that made you laugh, if you remember it? Jonathan S: 08:50 It was not verbatim, but it was basically like, all these clients have the same problem, but no one sees it. But really to me that's not what's actually happening, to me it's that maybe they see it, maybe they don't, but they just don't ... they might be aware of the situation that you're pointing out. But to them, it's not a problem. David F: 09:10 Right, so that would shift them from the bottom right, which is, they're not aware of the problem. But if they were aware of it, boy, they'd want to solve it. Right? The hidden cancer if you will, right? Jonathan S: 09:21 Exactly. David F: 09:22 Or the hidden pot of gold, even if they're aware of it, they don't have an urgent desire to solve the problem. And that's different. Now, you're in that middle box at the top. And those folks are, you have to deal with them differently. There's a lack of urgency. It's not a lack of awareness. It's a lack of urgency. So you need to create desire, and frankly, that's hard to do. David F: 09:49 And so if you had been working in an environment where you're chasing folks. You're trying to create this desire, you go, look, there's a huge problem. I'm looking at how you people at Starbucks, who I can help because I'm a personal trainer, and you're not as fit as you could be, I could help you, right? And you're trying to create demand, and you're submitting proposals and nobody assigning, you might not even hear from anyone. Right? David F: 10:11 That problem, if you have a lot of proposals that are languishing, if you don't hear back from prospects, it's because you're operating where there's a lack of urgency, and it's extremely frustrating. And the answer actually, isn't later in the process. It's not that you're doing something wrong in the selling process, is you're doing something wrong in the prospects' selection process. Jonathan S: 10:35 Right. Right. So to use your metaphor, and to use myself as an example, because I know examples help people, when I ... you talk in the book about you can move your boat ... you can sort of paddle around in your boat and find where the fish are or you can just randomly moor yourself somewhere and assume that just by throwing the line in the water, you're going to be pulling fishing. Jonathan S: 10:59 And you're like, I can't believe, this industry is dead, there's no fish coming out of the water. This pond is dead. Well, maybe you're just in the wrong spot in the pond. And with me, it was a similar sort of feeling where it wasn't that I was in ... To use the fishing metaphor, when it first started the whole industry was basically invented by the iPhone in 2007, 2008. Jonathan S: 11:21 So there was no pond and I was the first boat in it, or one of the very first boats in it. So we were pulling ... fish were jumping into the boat, because the pond was incredibly small. So there was some competition, but not enough to support the demand. But then the pond got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And if you didn't move your boat, you're still sitting in that same spot and the fish went somewhere else. David F: 11:45 Right. Right. So we weren't totally butcher the metaphor. Then we say, even where you are, if you're somewhere in your pond, or whatever and you're not catching any fish, you could move your boat, right? So that's one way at it. There's another way at it, which is to basically talk to the fish, become the Dr. Doolittle of fish, or whatever it is and- Jonathan S: 12:05 The Incredible Mr. Limpet. David F: 12:06 ... Or SpongeBob or something like that and find out what it is, because you're not solving the right problem for them. You don't have the right bait in some ways. So you don't always have to move your boat, though in all likelihood, you're going to have to make some changes. The one thing you know is if you're not winning as many clients as you'd like to, you have to make some changes. David F: 12:29 And you have to make your practice not about you. You have to make it about the clients. You have to make it about the fish, so that you're going after fish with what they're looking for. Jonathan S: 12:39 Yeah, what's the line, don't fish using strawberries and cream as bait. Use worms as bait, just because you like strawberries and cream. So- David F: 12:50 I have not heard that, but it's an interesting image. Jonathan S: 12:54 I completely destroyed it. It's a great quote that I destroyed and it's a classic. I think it's a Jeez, it's a classic. I think it's How to Make Friends and Influence People. David F: 13:07 Dale Carnegie. Jonathan S: 13:07 Yeah, I think it's a Carnegie quote. David F: 13:07 Yeah. Oh, that's great. Jonathan S: 13:11 Yeah. Anyway, I'll link to in the show notes, with Google under my fingertips to actually get it right. So there's something I want to point out here that we're not making explicit. I mean, we're saying it, but we haven't made it explicit. We're not talking about solutions. We're talking about problems, the problems that the clients have that you solve, and you just talked about, it's about the fish, It's not about the fisherman. Jonathan S: 13:35 So let's talk a little bit about ... this all sounds logical and straightforward. But how do you talk to the fish? How do you find those problems? How do you find your way to that top right square? David F: 13:49 Wow, what a great question. Not enough people ask that question. The answer to that is, it's actually extremely simple, not easy, like most of this stuff, it's not easy, but it's simple. And the answer you ask, you flat out ask. So I'm heading up to Toronto tomorrow as we record this, and please, I have an all day session with a consulting firm up there on Thursday. So what do I do tomorrow before I get there? David F: 14:18 Well, what I do is I reach out to other boutique firms, the leaders of boutique firms, some of whom I know, some of whom I don't know. And basically say, "look could I meet, not for any kind of sales call just to learn from you, just to hear what's going on in your world." Now, this isn't easy, especially if you're introverted, and I'm actually introverted. David F: 14:41 But it's critical, because every time I have a conversation with someone who looks like my prospective clients, I learned something, I learn about what's going on, what their problems are, what their problems aren't, which is just as important, because I don't want to waste my time talking about things that they don't need to solve. David F: 14:58 So the way you learn about this, the way you figure this out is actually by talking to people and asking them. And you might ask them, what problems have you had in the past year, two years that were so pressing, so urgent, so expensive to leave unsolved, that you actually hired someone to help you solve them? That's the right question. David F: 15:20 The wrong question is, "Hey, here's my fishing line. Or here's what I want to do. This is what I'm thinking about building my consulting practice on what do you think? Or would you maybe buy this, those are the wrong questions, anything hypothetical, like that will give you bad data, it would just give you very bad information. David F: 15:37 You need to find out what they are actually experiencing right now, or what they paid for in the past. That's what's going to tell you what the problems are in the marketplace. Jonathan S: 15:47 Absolutely. And you already said it. But I'm going to say it again, the answers to these questions might not be solvable with your current solutions or your current activities. But could be well within your skill set, your broader skill set, or that could be some skill that you could easily acquire. David F: 16:07 Sure. Jonathan S: 16:08 So- David F: 16:09 You can learn things. As matter of fact, the firm I'm working with tomorrow is a great example of it. Now, they're a small boutique. They're under $10 million. And the two owners, I want to be careful, because some people know who I work with. They're working in an industry and they're now extremely well regarded in the industry. Yet, neither one of them has a background in that industry. David F: 16:33 They have a background in a completely different world. And that's true of a number of my clients, quite a few of them that are very successful. They didn't define themselves by what they had done in the past. They define themselves by what their clients want. And as long as you're willing to do that, and you're smart, which I'm sure your listeners are smart and you're willing to pick up something new, sky's the limit. David F: 16:56 It's easy. I mean, that's one of the great things about consulting, there's no iron in the ground that you're paying for. There's no capital or equipment you've invested in. David F: 17:00 In the ground that you're paying for. There's no capital equipment you've invested in, in a massive assembly line. You can pick up just about anything. So find it and pick it up. Jonathan S: 17:10 Exactly. A lot of people might have heard you say the question, "What if you've hired someone from the outside to come in and help you with the past year or two?" You did not say, "What copywriters have you hired in the past year?" Or, "What software developers have you hired in the past year." Or, "What kind of software have you had outside [inaudible 00:17:31]?" You didn't say that at all. Jonathan S: 17:34 It's much broader than that. I tell people to do this exact same thing, optimize for conversations. If you aren't getting enough leads, you're not talking to enough people. Go out and have this exact conversation. Jonathan S: 17:47 This is sort of aspirational, if you could wave a magic wand, even if it was impossible, what would you change about your business, or your industry? Or, what keeps you up at night? The classic one is what's keeping you up nights. What's been on your to-do list forever that you haven't done? Jonathan S: 18:03 Yours is even more practical. Yours is actually a question that I use when I'm thinking about helping people choose which software features to develop. You say, "Don't ask people what features they wish something had because they're not software developers, they're probably not optimized to think of the answers to those questions. Ask them where they're having a hard time with their existing software solution." If you've got some competitor, go talk to their clients and say, "Hey, the last time you had to do X, last time you had to do a mail merge", or, "Last time you had to do some sort of marketing automation, what are your pet peeves about that? What blew up in your face? What was the biggest problem you had?" Jonathan S: 18:49 Because they can tell you and they're right. It's their history that they're telling to you. It's not this, "Oh well maybe I would like that feature." It's like no, find the pain, or the opportunity. But we usually just like pain. Go back and say, "Huh, I wonder if there's something I can do about that." Jonathan S: 19:10 To reiterate, this could very well mean, shock of shocks, you might have to change what you do. A little bit or a lot, I don't know. But it's really, if your goal is to go out and go where the fish are, as you put it, you need to be open to solving the problems the fish have, and not just having this hammer and going around looking for nails. David F: 19:32 Absolutely right, and it's a great mix of metaphors. There's just all sorts of awful images there. I love that, you're absolutely right. David F: 19:43 Jonathan, you and I and all the listeners, everybody who's listening to your podcast, are future focused. We're all entrepreneurs. We're all looking with optimism toward tomorrow and next month and next year and five years from now. But our clients are not entrepreneurs for the most part. Our clients are not as future focused. David F: 20:05 Asking them about the hypothetical, asking them about tomorrow and what do they need, not only is it not a good use of time, it will steer you in the wrong direction. You will literally get bad answers that will cost you time and money. Our clients, we need to focus them in the past. It can be difficult for us because we're future focused. It's an absolutely critical step. David F: 20:30 Keep those conversations past focused. And focused on symptoms. Like you said, problems or sometimes symptoms is a good way to think about it. What is that pain that they're experiencing? Jonathan S: 20:42 Yeah, that's a good segue into, I read something, I'm not sure if I misinterpreted it. It's a phony question but there's a ... Before I jump into that, can you give people a background on what you mean when you say, "Fishing line"? David F: 20:57 Fishing line is a very short encapsulation of your target and the problem you solve. I work with small consulting firms that are not achieving the revenue they think they could. Someone here, they either work with a consulting firm, or they run a consulting firm or they don't. If they don't, they say, "That's not me", and that's perfect. David F: 21:18 They either have the problem that I help solve, or they don't. If they don't, that's fine also because now I don't waste my time with them. What it does is your fishing line very quickly selects people, allows them to self select, to ask more. They say, "Oh, that is interesting. I run a consulting firm. Tell me a little bit more." David F: 21:36 That's all you're looking for. It's a conversation starter. You throw that line out and you see if someone nibbles and tries to get into conversation with you. From there on, you're good. You move into relationship building and nurturing and conversation. David F: 21:50 That's all a fishing line is, a very succinct encapsulation of your target, which is extremely narrow, and the problem you solve, which is very precise. And it's meant to start conversation. David F: 22:03 That's it. Does that make sense? Jonathan S: 22:05 Not only does it make sense, but it's like brother from another mother because listeners have heard me beating this drum endlessly. I have a different name for it, that doesn't matter, it's the same concept. Jonathan S: 22:16 Notice, dear listener, what is not in it. What's not in it is how you solve that problem. There's no "how" in there. There's no explanation, because you want them to ask how. It's exactly what you said, it's a conversation starter. Jonathan S: 22:33 Very focused, target market our audience or demographic or psychographic, this is very clear. I help people who believe this", or, "I help people who have this job title", or "I help people you work in this industry with this problem they have." Which is different than saying, "Oh I build software for businesses." David F: 22:51 Right. Or even, "I support a software platform." If it's a narrow platform. I work with a number of firms that do that. They're working with clients that use a certain platform and then they'll code within that in order to make it fit a particular client. David F: 23:12 But it has to be beyond just the platform. It's supposed to challenge the platform. Ideally, it's industry focused and on a certain platform, because the number one things clients look for is industry experience. Jonathan S: 23:24 Yeah, that's good. I have a lot of people who do platform specializations too. Things like Sales Force or File Maker, Shopify, that kind of thing. Jonathan S: 23:32 I do agree with you that it would be more powerful instead of saying, "I'm a Shopify plus expert", to say, "I help people who use Shopify", or "I help store owners who use Shopify, with this particular problem that is common to the platform." Jonathan S: 23:47 Or maybe it's not widespread, maybe it's very specific, but expensive problem for a small, small segment of Shopify users. David F: 23:54 Right. Actually if you say, "I'm a Shopify expert", you start devaluing yourself. Jonathan S: 24:00 Interesting. David F: 24:00 I'm not smart enough to know what a Shopify problem is, but if I could say, "I solved the problem with Shopify duplicate" or "basket abandonment", that adds value. And therefore you're able to charge a higher fee, because you're adding value. David F: 24:25 Focusing on the problem, especially a high value problem, is how you create the opportunity to win a high margin, high fee project. Whereas, if all you do is you say you're an expert, you're setting yourself up like a commodity, as someone who will unfortunately end up in a fee structure that's commoditized. Jonathan S: 24:43 Oh that's really interesting. That's funny that the notion of saying if you call yourself a Shopify expert now, you're in competition with every other Shopify expert. I wouldn't actually recommend someone call themselves a Shopify expert, but Shopify consultant, or advisor, I could see that on a business card. Jonathan S: 25:06 I do believe that you're right. I agree with that, that it would be even more powerful as a conversation starter. I don't know if you like the word "differentiator", but certainly you're differentiating yourself when you are decommoditizing yourself. I see that synonymously, but tell me if you disagree. David F: 25:29 I don't see them quite the same, but that's okay. In part because one of the lines you may not have seen in the book is that, I don't think consultants should differentiate. I don't think they should worry about differentiation. Jonathan S: 25:42 That's why I'm stammering, because I did read it. I feel like it's a distinction without a difference because in the book you say something along the lines of, if the client says why shouldn't we go with cheap-o ink and you say, "Well because I'm more reliable." That's a differentiator though. David F: 26:02 It is. Ultimately you do differentiate. What you differentiate on is reliability and credibility. Can you credibly solve the problem and are you gonna solve it without screwing up, without making your client look back. David F: 26:14 That's very different from how most people perceive differentiation. Most folks who approach their website for instance, or they approach their conversation with clients and they're thinking, "How do I make myself different? How do I make myself look different from everyone else?" That's the wrong question. David F: 26:34 There is a difference because our clients are choosing us for a reason, not just because they flipped a coin or threw a dart and hit our name. So there is a difference, it's just that difference is not what people typically associate with differentiation, which in marketing often means finding the subtle or unique points of difference. That's not what we're after. Jonathan S: 26:57 Like product or solution focused differences. Like different features. David F: 27:02 Right. And that's just not what we're after. It's not about your whiz bang, super unique process. As a matter of fact, your whiz bang, super unique process is more likely to scare off a prospective client than it is to attract them, because it doesn't look as reliable. David F: 27:19 If you're the only person in the world who's done this, if you say, "I've got something so new and so innovative", they're actually less likely to use you. Most clients aren't looking for innovation, they're simply looking for a solution to their problem. They want their pain to go away, no fuss, no muss, no issues, cause no harm. Jonathan S: 27:39 Yeah, and they've been burned so many times. David F: 27:41 Absolutely. Jonathan S: 27:41 Yeah exactly. They want something reliable, something that they can trust. They want risk mitigation, they want to feel like it's not risky. David F: 27:49 Absolutely right. Hiring any kind of freelancer or consultant, whether it's a programmer or a coder, someone helping with marketing strategy, you name it, it is fraught with anxiety for the purchaser. Because they've all been burned before, because there's very little that's concrete. David F: 28:07 We're selling what's inside our head, we're selling what's between our ears. That's difficult for them to get their hands around. And there's a big purchase they have to be able to justify to other people why it is not being done internally, or why they're not doing it themselves, and why they're spending so much money. There's a lot of head wind that you need to calm down. This whole idea of liability or credibility is lessening or dampening those winds to make it easy for our prospect to say, "Yeah, come on in. Come on board." Jonathan S: 28:42 I completely agree. You mentioned fees a little bit there, a little while back. Is there a big picture you can draw for me around pricing? David F: 28:52 First of all, fees are the trickiest part of consulting. The figuring out fee structures is without a doubt the most complex. There is as much art to it as there is science. David F: 29:04 There are a couple aspects to this. The one is fee structures. There are different fee structures. Some will create more value and create more margin for you. David F: 29:16 But there are other pieces. To the extent that you are working on a higher value problem, you can charge more. There's more value to be tapped. To the extent you are creating more value, you can charge more because there's more value to be tapped. Which means if you can solve the problem faster, if you can solve it with less interference, with less risk of failure, any of these kinds of things, those all allow you to increase your fees, to charge more. David F: 29:45 If you have more credibility, if you have renown, if you have a reputation in the marketplace, that allows you to charge more because it implies a certain level of reliability and credibility. Jonathan S: 29:57 You appear less risky. David F: 29:59 Yeah, you appear less risky. Exactly right. Contracts and pricing is actually all about risk, it's all about risk allocation. I don't talk a ton about that because that goes off into the really nerdy world of risk allocation pretty quickly. But ultimately that's what it's about. That's what they're paying you for. David F: 30:19 The more confident you can make your prospect, that you can solve their problem, that you are thinking about them, that you will not in any circumstances make them look bad, if you can hit those three, and the better you hit those three, the higher fees you can charge. Straight out. David F: 30:36 Now of course, there's a cap. The cap is set by the value of the problem you're solving. Solving a problem for one individual is likely to have less value than solving a problem for General Motors, or Microsoft. There's more money to be had if you're solving a problem for a bigger company. David F: 30:54 But you don't have to work for global giants to bring in very good consulting gigs, or contracts. This is a new learning for me. This is something I've learned over the past five years or so, is that I can work with firms, or companies, that only bring in seven figures, or maybe low eight figures, and win six figure contracts. David F: 31:19 I used to think because my corporate business was all with big companies. But you don't have to work with big companies to win big business. What you need to do is solve valuable problems and that will push your pricing up. David F: 31:30 That's all a little bit vague, so do you want to drive it to a level that's more concrete? Or what would work best do you think for your listeners, Jonathan? Jonathan S: 31:39 There's a specific thing I'd like to drill into, which is this. You referred to increasing your authority in the space, becoming a recognized expert if you will, or if you want to use another term, but basically looking like the low risk option. What are the strategies and tactics that someone can use to go from what looks like a risky option to what looks like a safe bet? David F: 32:07 Yeah, and again, really insightful question. Because how do you compete with Accenture? How do you compete with Deloitte? They've got big brand names. The consultant who walk in with a card that's stamped with Deloitte, or Accenture, or PWC or E&Y, they have the brand behind them, and that brand's worth a lot. David F: 32:29 What do you do if you don't have that brand? One thing of course is, over time you establish the brand. That's a long term, multiple years, if not decades, endeavor. But you can establish a brand. David F: 32:45 What could you do in the short term? There are quite a few things you can do in the short term. I'll give you just a handful of them. One of course is, you do good work. You can bring in case studies, you can bring in testimonials, you can bring in references from other people. David F: 32:59 I'm gonna tell you something that you can do. I'll give you and your listeners a tactical tip. I don't know if it's in the book or not. It's something I call Loop Backs. Basically, when you are in conversation with a prospect they might ask you something. Rather than answering it right away ... Maybe they ask you, "Do you know how to solve this certain type of problem in JavaScript?" And excuse me, because I'm not a coder, even though both my sons are, I have no idea what they're talking about either. Jonathan S: 33:27 That was good. Yeah, you nailed it. You had me convinced and then you blew it. I was like, "Whoa, he knows what JavaScript is." David F: 33:33 Yeah, there you go. Try selling something to JavaScript. Rather than saying, "Yeah, I can do that", what you might say is, "You know what, that's a good question. If you don't mind, let's put that one to the side for just a moment and I'll get back to it in about five minutes." Because you were also talking about this other thing, and you continue the conversation. David F: 33:50 Then five minutes later you go back and you say, "You asked about this question, about JavaScript. Let me address that, let me give you the answer to that now." David F: 33:58 Or, they say, "Can you send me some materials?" And you say. David F: 34:00 "... and can you send me some materials?" You say, "Absolutely. I will get those to you tomorrow," and then, you get the material to them tomorrow. David F: 34:09 What you are doing in this case is you are fulfilling a small promise. Because your prospects don't have any experience with you fulfilling large promises, no direct experience, unless they've been a client of yours before- Jonathan S: 34:22 Yeah, [crosstalk 00:34:23]. David F: 34:22 ... they have to rely on your ability and willingness and consistency in fulfilling small promises, and then, they extrapolate from that. So you can build trust fairly quickly by living up to small promises, and you can create the opportunity to live up to those promises with these loopbacks by saying, "Hey, you know what, let me go back to that," and then, getting back to it." Jonathan S: 34:45 That is great. I often talk about the small promises thing and do things just even on follow-ups. You've got a long sales cycle happening, you say, "Hey, if I don't hear from you by blah, I'll email you on date." Then on date, you say, "Hey, as promised, following up about this thing you wanted me to check back and see the status of the project," so on and so forth. Jonathan S: 35:10 This is sort of in the nurture phase, so you got one of these long sales cycles where the problem is not urgent, but the client knows you're a good fit for something like when they do pull the trigger, you're definitely going to be in the running, but you just want to keep in touch with them. Jonathan S: 35:26 I do with email all the time, and I tell people to do it. Put a follow-up date in the email, and then, when you follow up say, "As promised, following up," and- David F: 35:37 You're absolutely right. And, of course, well, I know you do and I do and hopefully many listeners do, is if you are in conversation with a prospect, you do not hang up the phone, if you've been on a phone conversation, without actually setting that date in the calendar so that the email is more of a confirmation. David F: 35:54 They receive many calendar invite anyway because you agreed ... "We'll talk in six months. It's July right now. What do you say we talk ... Oh, no, how about December? Should we start to talk at the beginning of the year? Great. Pull out your calendar. How does the second week in January look?" Jonathan S: 36:09 Exactly. Yup. But, no, see the new tip, though, the tip that I love that you gave, was their opportunities create these, what did you call them, loopbacks? David F: 36:19 Right, loopbacks. These small promises. So you're going to create something, then you're going to loopback to it later and fulfill that promise. Jonathan S: 36:27 I never thought about looking for them. I definitely, like when they show up, jump on them, but you proactively doing it is a really good idea. Because you'll see quickly that most people don't do this, so you suddenly, in a really short amount of time, you look way more professional than your clients do because they're busy, and I know we're all busy, too. But if you do this one thing, you will come across like you're significantly more put together than most of the people than you're in contact with. Jonathan S: 36:59 And it shifts the power frame a little bit, if you're familiar with- David F: 37:02 Sure. Jonathan S: 37:03 ... what's his name, Oren Klaff, and his ... Geez, I can't remember the name of the book. But he's got this concept about power frames and he's kind of an aggressive alpha dog type of guy. It's not my favorite approach, but I do- David F: 37:17 I've got to say that's not really my approach. Jonathan S: 37:18 It's not my favorite, but I don't think he's wrong, where the sort of social weight or the social ball quickly comes into your court in a good way. They're starting to feel scattered, you're just doing what you said you were going to do and you do it when you say you're going to do it, and it becomes an attractive force. David F: 37:45 You bet. Jonathan S: 37:46 On top of the trust-building aspect, I think there's another kind of attraction that happens there. It's almost like a- David F: 37:53 Oh, I think you're absolutely right. Setting dates in particular which some people feel like, " Oh, but isn't that being pushy?" or "I'm not imposing on them?" No, actually the exact opposite. What you're doing is you are offering your prospects some clarity on their calendar and their calendar their future is as murky, messy, ugly, scary thing hanging out there. So when you offer clarity, you say, "Let's talk the second week of January. Let's talk that Tuesday at 10 AM." It's locked in. It's clarity for them. They feel relief by having it on their calendar. The worst thing is not knowing when you're going to talk again. That's anxiety. People don't deal very well with ambiguity. Ambiguity causes stress, it causes anxiety. So putting something on the calendar, you're absolutely right. It actually creates a lessening of the anxiety, it creates some clarity, and then, makes you more attractive. Jonathan S: 38:47 Absolutely. I wanted to drill into something that I know a lot of listeners to sort of rationally understand and perhaps even recognize in the brands or vendors or products and services that they use, but they have the worst time ever identifying when they're doing it wrong. It's just so hard to see the forest for the trees, can't read the label from inside the bottle. Jonathan S: 39:17 It was in the section about common mistakes with your fishing line, or whatever you normally call your positioning statement. There was one where you said, "We get rid of bugs" is a solution versus "We help homeowners whose kitchens are infested with roaches." Do you mean in that sentence or that phrase, do you mean that like the entire fishing line would be "We get rid of bugs," and that's- David F: 39:45 No, and I don't recall that way exactly. Jonathan S: 39:49 Fair enough. David F: 39:50 That's right. But often what happens is, and I may be heading in the wrong direction here, but it's more common to say, to talk about the bugs as opposed to the homeowner and their situation. So the issue actually isn't ... No one says "I want an exterminator," or they'll say it eventually, but how they get there is, "Oh, my God. This is so disgusting. I have roaches all over my kitchen," right? [crosstalk 00:40:23] feel- Jonathan S: 40:23 Yes. Well, that's the fishing where the fish are. That's the urgent. David F: 40:26 Right. And it's the emotional challenge also, so you want to deal with that emotional challenge also. Jonathan S: 40:36 The thing that I'm getting at is the difference between using the desired future state versus the current state in the fishing line. It sounds like you prefer to say it's not that ... "We help homeowners have a bug-free house." That's very different than ... I mean to your listener I'm sure that when you heard "Kitchen infested with roaches," you might have even recoiled. It's a powerful visual versus "We help homeowners live a bug-free life," or whatever. David F: 41:18 See, you're talking a little bit about aspirations versus problems and should we target aspirations or should be target problems? The answer is you can do either one. You can do either one and succeed. The aspirational version is "We give you a clean house. We give you a bug-free house." That's the aspiration. The problem version is "We kill those disgusting roaches in your house." We solve the problem versus we give you an aspiration. They're very close, they're subtly different. David F: 41:50 There's some interesting connections between that frame, whether it's a positive or a negative frame and pricing. There's an interesting research I wrote about a couple of years ago, I think. There's an article on my website about that. But you can go either way. Consultants tend to want to be aspirational because it sounds better, it sounds nicer. What they didn't tell you is it's a longer sale to target aspirations. Targeting a problem is a faster sale because people want to solve their problems usually fairly desperately, fairly urgently. Whereas, aspirations have less urgency and they're more discretionary. David F: 42:34 Now, on the other hand, aspirations, when you win them, can sometimes be the larger projects. So from the coding world, if there's a bug in the software, well, let's go back to Y2K for any of you who were alive back then. Jonathan S: 42:47 Probably not. Probably not as many as I wish. David F: 42:49 Yeah, I know. I'm dating myself here. But Y2K was a clue that there was a problem. We have to fix the problem or a software will break. That was not aspirational. It was a problem and there was huge urgency on that. There was desperation in some cases, and so, back in those days, there was business galore for folks to solve those problems and you were familiar with legacy systems. David F: 43:13 The aspiration at the time may have been, you know what I'd love is a ... I don't know. We're talking about the early '90s. I would love a graphical interface. I know [inaudible 00:43:26] thing for back then with the aspiration [inaudible 00:43:28] but getting that graphical interface, if that was an aspiration, was not nearly as important and urgent as getting the problem solved. So the graphical interface might ultimately be a bigger win, but it's the Y2K problem at that time that got the money more immediately. Jonathan S: 43:55 That's funny because that just happened with GDPR and- David F: 43:58 Right. That would be a better example. Jonathan S: 44:02 But the thing about that is, those two specific examples and there are other ones, and it is also similar to the Gartner Hype Curve and blockchain and augmented reality kind of churning at the very peak of inflated expectations. They are all this sort of globally ebbs and flows. I mean like in 2001, if your whole business was around solving Y2K bugs, see you later, that's, I don't know. David F: 44:02 Exactly. Jonathan S: 44:34 That's a very different kind of problem than, say, we help people who manage apartment complexes get rid of roach infestations. That's the kind of problem that's, unfortunately, almost fairly recurrent. Or it's not globally happens once, and then, it's done. David F: 44:54 Yeah, but I'll tell you what. Some of the most successful firms jump on those one-and-done problems, and then, pivot off of them. Jonathan S: 45:02 Interesting. David F: 45:02 They create momentum and they pivot off of them. It is important, especially for your listeners because your listeners aren't focused on certain software platforms or software in general. It is very important to keep your finger on the pulse of what's going on in the area you specialize, and then, don't hang on too long because it evolves. Jonathan S: 45:26 Yeah, [crosstalk 00:45:26] David F: 45:26 One of my clients is actually a nice size firm. They are around $20 million, but almost all of their business was built on a certain call center software platform and doing implementation and that type of stuff. David F: 45:43 Unfortunately, the market has moved on from that particular platform to another platform and they've been hanging on desperately. Now what I've been doing is just beating them into submission to let go and move on to someplace else, so we're finding what their someplace else is. So your listeners do need to be very careful of hanging on to one spot. David F: 46:04 But if there's an urgent problem, there's nothing wrong with jumping on that, creating the connections, creating the relationships, and then, nurturing those relationships and letting those people know that you got broader capabilities. So narrow is your way in, narrow gets you in the door. But once you're in there, you can spread out. Jonathan S: 46:22 That is a really important point to emphasize because I know a lot of people miss it. I see it all the time, too. These sorts of things, this is the sign outside your Irish pub. You don't have a list of all 200 beers on tap out on the sidewalk. You say "Cold Corona inside" because it's 150 degrees. It's how hot it feels in Providence right now, and you want to get them in the door. Jonathan S: 46:48 Once you get them in the door, aka they become a customer, they become a client, then you don't need to carefully adhere to your positioning statement, this extremely narrow focus because you're having conversations, you've built trust, you've delivered wins, people think you're smart, they know you, they like you. It's a completely different ballgame. Well, not completely different, but it's a very different ballgame. Once you're inside and you have contacts and you know the politics, you know, all of the intricacies of working inside of a company, it's just completely different. David F: 47:23 Absolutely right. But plus- Jonathan S: 47:24 So this is ... Yup? David F: 47:25 Plus you know they must be really accepting because they went into an Irish pub looking for a Corona. Now, I get it. Jonathan S: 47:32 Wow. Nice. [inaudible 00:47:34] David F: 47:34 So would you [inaudible 00:47:36] to a client. They will come to you and be open to you doing more once you've proven you can deliver the basic goods. Jonathan S: 47:45 Yes. Excellent. Excellent point. Okay. We could probably go all day and I would love to, but I know we've both got other things coming up. Where can people find out more about what you're doing and connect with you online? David F: 48:02 The easiest place is just jump on my website, which is davidafields.com, so just [inaudible 00:48:09] middle initial, davidafields.com. Or you can always go on to Amazon or wherever you buy books and look up Guide to Winning Clients. It's often in the airport bookstores, too. I've been very fortunate the book has done well, and so Google that and grab it, or jump onto my website. I'm also pretty easy to grab. Jonathan S: 48:30 Yes, I second that motion. The guide, it's really good. It's a fun writing style, the illustrations are very engaging, and it's not dry at all. Very practical and I highly recommend it. David F: 48:44 Well, thank you. Jonathan S: 48:46 All right. Well, thanks very much, David. Maybe we could do this again sometime? David F: 48:51 That would be awesome. It really has been a delight. Jonathan S: 48:53 All right. That's it for this week. I'm Jonathan Stark and I hope to see you again on Ditching Hourly. Bye. If you'd like to learn more about how to ditch hourly billing, please go to valuepricingbootcamp.com to sign up for my free email course. Again, that URL is valuepricingbootcamp.com. Thanks. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Tom DeMarco - a former software litigation consultant - explains what all late software projects have in common. Guest Bio Tom DeMarco is a Principal of The Atlantic Systems Guild, a technology think tank with offices in the United States, Great Britain and Germany. He is the author of ten books on organizational dynamics and the role of technology, plus five novels. His most recent work —just published this month — is a romance, entitled The One-Way Time Traveler. Talking Points Why clients get angry when a project is late Who is to blame when a project is late The real reason for tight deadlines How to respond when a project has an unrealistic deadline How the value of a project affects deadline expectations Why clients initiate projects that offer marginal returns How managers use bad estimates to manipulate employees Why software is so inexpensive these days What distinguishes prosperous software developers from those who are struggling What buyers are actually concerned about other than price Quotable Quotes "I thought all late projects were the same in that they were really estimation failures, not performance failures. I still believe that all late projects are the same, but for an entirely different reason. All projects that finish late have this one thing in common: they started late."—TD "By the 1990s, a significant part of my practice was litigation support, which was a natural consequence of raising my rates to the level that only legal departments could afford."—TD "Being blindsided by the competition—is not software developer failure but that of some marketing arm that got one upped by superior marketers in another company."—TD "If a project offered a value of 10 times its estimated cost, no one would care if the actual cost to get it done were double the estimate."—TD Related Links Tom's Late Projects article Tom's Personal Site The Atlantic Systems Guild Procreate App ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

You know you can't literally buy an hour from someone... so why do you think you can sell an hour to someone? Here's the tweet that inspired this episode: Matt's Tweet Thanks to Matt Olpinski for asking! —J ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Thinking of monetizing your expertise by creating an online software training course? Don't make these three classic blunders. Lessons Learned Building My First Online Software Course with guest Chris Buecheler Today I'm joined by guest Chris Buecheler to talk about a few of the hard lessons he learned creating his first online software course, Five Minute React. Chris' Bio Christopher Buecheler is a self-taught web developer with over 20 years of professional experience. He's worked as a developer for a variety of internet companies. He founded CloseBrace because he loves tech and wanted to share his knowledge with other developers. "I believe you can learn Node, Express, React, or anything else you'd like, and I want to help you do it!" —Chris Buecheler Talking Points Using version locking to future-proof your course Building the example app before writing the education materials Knowing how much to material to cover in a single course Links closebrace.com fiveminutereact.com expressjscheatsheet.com jsquickhits.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Guest Adam Aronson joins me to discuss the feasibility of value pricing for firms. Adam's Bio Adam is the founder and principle of FileMaker development firm FullCity Consulting. Since 2000, FullCity has serviced clients like ESPN, the NY Rangers, and the WWE. Earlier in his career, he managed FileMaker database systems for advertising and television production at Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia and provided 24/7 personal technology support for Ms. Stewart and her executive team. Adam managed the IT side of the advertising department at Toys ‘R Us and was database manager for Bloomingdale’s wedding registry website. Without further ado, here's my interview with Adam Aronson. Enjoy! Links FullCity Consulting Find Your Moose Conference Talking Points Hourly billing is like taxes and fossil fuels; there's just not a better answer out there. There are two very different reasons why clients might ask you how long the project is going to take: They have some actual hard deadline They see time as a proxy for cost Developers are like artists. Would jazz musicians do their best work if you were paying them by the hour? Why do you eat hours on things you think took you too long, but you don't add hours for things you think you finished extra fast? If you're asking the client questions about their business logic or entity relationships in a sales meeting, you're doing it wrong. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

What if a client doesn't understand what they're getting themselves into? Talking points: The sales meeting is not over until you're reasonably confident that you can help improve the client's condition. Don't quote work that you believe will most likely hurt the client (even if they insist that they know what their doing). If you are skeptical of the client's vision, tell the client so and ask them to help you "connect the dots" to understand their business case. You need to understand the client's desired business outcomes in order to write a value based proposal (a feature list is not sufficient). Separating fools from their money is bad way to build a long-term business. When offering options, the lowest price option should be the thing that you agreed to in the sales meeting. Higher tier options may or may not have been discussed in the sales meeting. The lowest price option should be the most risky to the client and the highest tier should be the least risky to the client. Questions? Leave me a voicemail at (401) 952-8899 and I'll include your recording in an upcoming show. Cheers! —J ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Guest David C. Baker joins me to talk about expertise, positioning, the pros and cons of vertical vs horizontal focus, addressing client concerns about conflicts of interest, the risk of hitching your cart to a third party, and tons more.David's BioDavid grew up with a tribe of Mayan Indians in a remote village in the highlands of Guatemala. He’s an author, speaker, and advisor to entrepreneurial experts. This is his fifth book.He’s a helicopter and airplane pilot, an avid photographer, and taught high performance motorcycle riding/racing. Based in Nashville, he has visited and worked all over the world.He is married, has two boys, two daughters-in-law, and multiple grandchildren. His work has been featured in the WSJ, Fast Company, USA Today, Inc. Magazine, and Forbes.He speaks regularly at various TEDx events, Harvard, Adobe, and major international conferences to audiences looking for accessibly refreshing insight into how experts shape their world.Links The Business of Expertise ReCourses: Business Insight for Expert Marketing Firms 2Bobs: Conversations on the art of creative entrepreneurship with David C. Baker and Blair Enns ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Guest Nick Disabato (aka nickd) talks about measuring the economic value of design. Links Nick's personal site Nick's consultancy Nick's new book Nick's A/B testing course ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Does the idea of doubling your prices make you physically ill? Janet Kafadar shares a very personal, inspirational, and funny story about how pricing herself too low wrecked her health... and yet raising her prices literally made her puke. Definitely check this one out. Links Janet's site Janet's YouTube ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Jane Portman joins me to talk about her new book, Your Productized Consulting Guide. Links Jane's book - Your Productized Consulting Guide Jane's SaaS - UserList.io Jane's home site 20% Off Ditching Hourly listeners can use coupon code DH20 for 20% any package of Jane's book. Thanks Jane! ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Blair Enns delivers an impromptu master class on the strategies and tactics of value pricing creative work.Blair's BioBlair Enns is a 25-year veteran of the business side of the creative professions. In 2002, he launched Win Without Pitching, which has worked with thousands of creative professionals in numerous countries through direct engagements, seminars, workshops & webcasts. Blair is the author of "The Win Without Pitching Manifesto" and the forthcoming "Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour"Links Pricing Creativity Win Without Pitching 2Bobs Podcast Blair on Twitter Blair on LinkedIn Implementing Value Pricing: A Radical Business Model for Professional Firms Jonathan's notes on "Pricing With Confidence" by Reed Holden "The Big Lie of Strategic Planning" in HBR TranscriptJonathan:Hello and welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. On today's show I'm joined by Blair Enns. Blair is a 25 year veteran of the business side of the creative professions. In 2002, he launched Win Without Pitching which has worked with thousands of creative professionals in numerous countries through direct engagements, seminars, workshops and webcasts. Blair's the author of the Win Without Pitching Manifesto and the forthcoming Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. Without further ado, here's my interview with Blair [00:00:30] Enns, enjoy. Blair, welcome to the show.Blair:Thank you Jonathan, my pleasure to be here.Jonathan:I am super excited to talk with you today especially about your new book Pricing Creativity. Could you start off by giving listeners a little bit of context about what the book is meant to do for its readers, who's targeted at, what led you to write it just sort of the big picture.Blair:Yeah so my businesses is Win Without Pitching, it's a sales training for creative professionals. We work with [00:01:00] independent, typically owners of independent creative firms of various types usually design or advertising based but often going into the kind of adjacent markets and their teams and we help them get better at selling what it is that they do and you know there's some right there in the name Win Without Pitching there are some ideas around the conventions that we help to challenge. Pricing Creativity is meant to be a [00:01:30] desk reference ... an enjoyable readable reference manual for anybody in the creative professions who sets, negotiates or delivers price.Jonathan:Excellent. Well that's right up our alley here. We have had similar paths over the years, we've read a lot of the same people, I know Alan Watts is big on your list, Ron Baker, many many others [00:02:00] I think we probably have the same set of 20 pricing books on our bookshelves.Blair:Yeah, probably.Jonathan:And also we both have spent at least a decade I think you probably have at least two decades of actually implementing this stuff or experience in a field that you're now implementing these theories in, actually converting them into practice so it's going to be ... it sort of comes as no surprise to me that we have lots and lots and lots of kind of like shared ... I don't want to say revelations [00:02:30] but it just like, wow this stuff does work, it is tricky to implement and it takes some doing, there's a perhaps more art than science at some points but it definitely works and largely in my case I'm super anti hourly billing in case you couldn't tell by the [inaudible 00:02:51] portal, but I know that you do talk about some types of hourly and [00:03:00] for your target market, for people who are making payroll and they've got a bunch of bodies that they have a lot of capacity I should say, it does make sense to perhaps sell blocks of time.Kind of want to talk about that at some point. Maybe we don't have to dwell into that now but you have this great framework called the four phases of client engagement that talks about this sort of decreasing value curve as you come down [00:03:30] from the discovery phase or I think you call a diagnostic phase and the and that moves into recommendations. Maybe you could talk about the four phases just briefly because people, listeners are familiar with this concept I've talked about you before.Blair:The four phases in any engagement of any expertise space business would be diagnose, where you come to understand the client situation, prescribe, where you prescribe a therapy if we wanted to use continue with the medical analogy, [00:04:00] the deliverables of the diagnose phase would be diagnostic findings, the deliverables at the prescribe phase would be a strategy and then you have what I call the apply phase or the initial application of therapy. Then you have ongoing reapplication of therapy so diagnose, prescribe, apply, reapply, and the highest value offering that you have is first and foremost your ability to accurately diagnose the client's challenges, [00:04:30] assess the scene as it were and from there if you're not able to diagnose properly then it doesn't matter how good your prescription is if it's not targeted to the challenge that's really there.Then when you get into reapplication, excuse me you get into the fourth phase reapplication, that's the highly commoditized stuff of redoing things over and over again where you're adding very little value. It's mostly you're getting paid for things that you do with your hands and your [00:05:00] feet mostly your hands a little bit of your brain still but I do like to break those four phases of the engagement into two separate categories. I refer to the first two diagnose and prescribe as the thinking stages or phases and then the latter to apply and reapply are the doing phases so your point is the highest value offering that you have is in the ... I call them stages, the thinking stages and then once you get into doing that tends to [00:05:30] be more commoditized.I think from time to time it makes sense to package up a whole lot of that doing. Sometimes it does make sense to sell that as units of time. It really depends on the business, it really depends on how you sold the previous stages of the engagement, it depends on how your business is set up, how your clients businesses are set up, so I really do like the idealism of value based pricing. Ron Baker who I'm sure we're going to talk about [00:06:00] has been a tremendous influence on my thinking on value based pricing and he read an advance copy of the book as did you and he had some really good feedback for me and one of his points of feedback where I had to say, "Well I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one," is he's just adamant that at no point should you ever sell time.I like the idealism of that I think practically there are times when it makes sense to sell time and one of those times might be when [00:06:30] you're selling that fourth phase, the ongoing reapplication work and it's just a whole bunch of busywork. It might make sense to sell that in units of time.Jonathan:I think you ... I see this as well, I tend to tackle it in a little bit different a way but again I think this is because of different audiences. There are people who listen to this show who are not just developers and there are firm owners, developer and other types, [00:07:00] and I see ... the thing with the implementation phase specifically, I call it implementation phase with the build phase. Usually the first time you build a new piece of software it's like a build phase and that's what most software developers sell is the build phase and they give away the first two phases for free to try to win the deal or as a first step in it before they start building but they just sort of build themselves out of the normal build hourly rate [00:07:30] because they would never even occur to them to charge for those most valuable pieces.I suppose the way to look at it is if you already have a lot of capacity in your firm and you just have a lot of employees, you've got like 10, 200 column junior devs or whatever you want to call them, you need to have a sufficient cash flow to cover their payroll or if they are contractors their expectations, [00:08:00] you know financial expectations of the relationship. I do, from a pragmatic standpoint say look if you have to ... if you've got these people and you've made these promises, then fine sell implementation and if you have to sell it by the hour then sell by the hour if that's what you need to keep the lights on.I see it as something ... my general advice is to be moving away from that kind of work and to grow your firm instead of by increasing the number of hands on deck to do that kind [00:08:30] of busy work in those later phases to instead not hire, not grow by hiring but grow by increasing your profits and trying to always be moving this I call it increasing the altitude engagement so trying to move farther up the chain of command at the client, working with people who are farther up the chain of command in order to do more strategic types of engagements that are higher value.Blair:I agree with that and I think I can see the point opposite to mine. [00:09:00] I can see you and Ron making the point that as soon as you put this on the table Bair you kind of give people the invitation to go back to hourly because hourly is the easy thing to do that's why we do it. We can rationalize and we can cover it up tell ourselves other stories about other reasons why we do it, it's just easier to price based on inputs. It's easier ... The conversations are so much easier, [00:09:30] you have something you can point to and I think of the few different places where it would make sense to sell time. The idea ... I'm not suggesting that all of your engagements of the kind of the more role implementation or what I call the reapplication work should be packaged up and bundled as time.I think there are better examples of ... and it's interesting you know one of the perspectives I hoped to bring to the subject matter is I'm a sales trainer first. I run a sales training organization for creative professionals. [00:10:00] It's occurred to me that I've met a lot of career professionals who are familiar with the theory of value based pricing but very few of them who actually do it and the reason that if all sure is the conversations are hard, the sales part of it, the interactions with the human beings. That's the hard part.I recognize that as soon as I open the door and say well okay, value based pricing is the way to go but you know from time to time it does make sense to sell time. I'm going to enable a whole bunch [00:10:30] of bad behavior but there are better times. An example of selling excess capacity. When you're out there selling actively looking for new clients for your organization, you're looking for a small number of clients at a certain size and so many firms forget about the at a certain size and there's some math that most firms should be able to do on this so you know that it doesn't make sense to take a client under the size of X.Let's say you're out there hunting for clients the size of X [00:11:00] or greater and along comes something that's maybe like an L or whatever. It's point three X. X should be ... your starting point for figuring out what X should be is 10% of your fee income target for the year. That's your starting point for figuring it out so if you're a million dollar shop, you should be looking for clients who spend about a hundred thousand dollars with you over the course of the year. If you're a ten million dollar shop you're [00:11:30] looking for million dollar clients. Let's say you're a million dollar shop and you're looking for a hundred thousand dollar clients and you uncover somebody who says well I have a twenty five thousand dollar project.You should not pursue project work in a customized services firm where you have capacity constraints there are only so many clients you can work with. Invariably you're going to uncover project work from time to time and when it makes sense to take on project work like 25,000 when you're pursuing hundred thousand [00:12:00] dollar or longer engagements is when you have excess capacity. When it makes sense to sell time in this case is when you have a price buyer, somebody who's really price sensitive, somebody you wouldn't normally do business with, you're looking for more value buyers right so you can price based on value so it's not somebody you wouldn't normally do business with but it's a one off project. You can price it in a way that it can be profitable for you and so you're essentially [00:12:30] using excess capacity and then you just have to make sure you do a couple of things.Number one is you price in, you sell blocks of time and it might be a ten thousand dollar block of time, it might be 20,000, it might be all twenty five thousand dollar block time in this example and you don't open yourself up to an hourly billing engagement. So, number one you sell a block of time and that block doesn't even necessarily have to measure up with exactly what the client's budget is so we can get into [00:13:00] some nuance there and number two you want to make sure you strip all of the excess value out. Things like access to senior people, reporting et cetera, et cetera, maybe even project management like full on project management. You might be able to strip that out.The ideal scenario where I think it makes sense to think about selling time is when you have excess capacity and you're dealing with a price buyer who has a project and [00:13:30] if you think you can frame an engagement or I'll sell this block of time there's no guarantee on deliverables when that unit of time is up, it's up. If we're not finished you need to buy another block of time in this case blocks might be 10,000, 20,000, 25,000 and you don't get to buy an extra five hours you've got to buy an extra $10,000 worth of time, it makes sense to consider situations like that.Jonathan:I do not disagree with that, it's very very pragmatic. This is the kind of [00:14:00] application of value theory. It's not even, it's not even really ... we're not even talking about value pricing here but it's a pricing approach that's super pragmatic based in the real world. Sometimes you need to take on clients who maybe you would rather not or are not a good fit or maybe have some red flags but hey you've got to make payroll, you need the money, how are you going to price it, and there are a couple of things you pointed out there that I think are nontrivial.First, not selling 1Z 2Z [00:14:30] hours you're selling blocks in advance not in arrears. You're not saying like, "Okay here's the invoice for all the hours." It's like "You buy $10,000 block and we'll get going." I think that's super important. The other thing is to recognize that it's for the doing work and it's not for the thinking work and the thinking work would be something that you would price separately outside of the hourly [00:15:00] block model.Blair:Absolutely, nothing commoditizes thinking work faster than selling it in units of doing.Jonathan:Exactly. Another thing that is important to recognize is that moving from what you and probably the rest of the world dear listener are used to doing, billing for your time by the hour is a slow process. It's not the kind of thing you can do overnight and the approach [00:15:30] that you've just described is a perfectly reasonable transition step to keep you from going out of business while you're learning how to work this nuclear bomb of value pricing. It's very powerful and this rocket can take you to the moon but it's really really easy to get wrong the first 10 or 20 times. It's almost a strategic use of trading time for money that I think makes good sense [00:16:00] as a transition step at least.Blair:Yeah, and in this case we're probably talking about one person keeping one time sheet for a week or two. That's probably an area where maybe we differ a little bit but yeah I don't know, I wouldn't call it-Jonathan:I just think there's some nuances there that are important. You mentioned a word that I would love to loop back to which is commoditized and the first thing in your book that blew [00:16:30] my head open was a passage that I'd actually like to read if that's okay.Blair:Yeah.Jonathan:The section is called, "Producer or marketer which are you?" And this is sort of the concluding paragraph so I'll let you expound on it but the concluding paragraph is, "And now we arrive at a fundamental issue of pricing creativity. You can have a culture of efficiency or one of customer innovation aka value creation but not both. You have to decide, are you [00:17:00] going to be a producer focused on efficiencies or are you going to be a marketer focused on value creation." I've never seen this articulated so clearly and I'd love it if you could kind of pull that apart for people.Blair:I'm not going to take credit for it, first time I read something like that was Ron Baker in his book Pricing on Purpose and then again in his second book Implementing Value Pricing and he himself is quoting Peter Drucker the great author [00:17:30] and father of management consulting but I don't quite identify with the words that Drucker used. He used the words effectiveness and efficiency so he has them at the opposite end of the spectrum and I think effectiveness is kind of a nice ... it's a literation it's a nice play on the word efficiencies but when you think about it, it's pretty clear you don't have to spend too much time thinking about. It's [00:18:00] pretty clear that all firms exist on this continuum of efficiencies on one end.Usually efficiency driven firms are firms that are working towards optimizing all of the available hours, so billable efficiency right, so the number of billable hours available, what percentage of those across the firm are your billing, and there's billable efficiency targets that are put up by consultants like my friend David C. Baker ReCourses and others. All firms exist on the spectrum with efficiency, [00:18:30] the pursuit of efficiency at one end of the scale and at the other end of the scale is innovation or delivering client value and you think well if you're a firm that's focus on efficiencies right now you're probably bristling at that.You think well we're not, come on we're not giving up innovation when we pursue efficiencies but absolutely you are because innovation the creation of customer value, these are essentially the same things not ... they're [00:19:00] close enough for our conversation. They require waste, they're hugely inefficient. Innovation is hugely inefficient and it requires time and space to be able to think, try things on, discard things, try something radical. Not just time and space requires money so you need to charge enough that you've got all kinds of time and space to put your feet up on the desk or and think or to experiment and iterate et cetera. [00:19:30] When you are estimating how many hours it's going to take you to do something, you're really confining your people and putting them in that hour box and you're removing ... by removing waste, you remove the opportunity for innovation and it's cut and dried.If you still don't get it just think about it a few minutes longer and you'll see how true this statement is. I've said this from many stages and often in the audience there is kind of a CFO or an operations' [00:20:00] person or maybe even an accountant or some sort of consultant around efficiencies and they just kind of bristle at this and there are whole movements out there about getting your firm more efficient and you can ... through efficiencies you can get to a certain place profitability wise and you can get to a certain place based on other variables innovation wise and value creation wise for your client but the closer you get to ... the more efficient you [00:20:30] become the more you give up on those other fronts.Jonathan:I could not agree with this more. It just changes the culture of what's important and it's ... I agree that I don't see how you can have both. In fact, I'm reminded of an article I just read, it's not a new article but I just read it on Harvard Business Review essentially that strategic planning is an oxymoron and [00:21:00] it's the same kind of concept because planning is around cutting costs and getting efficiencies and strategy is about value creation, how are we going to leap to the next mountain. First of all, where is the next mountain top? Which one are we going to leap to and then figure out how we're going to get there it's top ... and he uses almost ... maybe I'm conflating the two but I believe he uses almost identical terms about it's going to be messy, it's not going to be efficient and that's the way it's supposed to be. It's never not [00:21:30] going to be risky, the strategy part, the value creation part, the innovation part, it's always going to be risky. If it's not risky you're doing it wrong so [crosstalk 00:21:38]Blair:Yeah, you're describing entrepreneurship. You're describing what it means to build a business and then at the same time when we look, hone in zero in on it, you're actually describing the nature of your relationships with your clients. That's how it should be. It should be messy, it should have all of this room for figuring stuff out, it's [00:22:00] organic. You can try to break it down and understand it to a certain extent but the more you do it's like dissecting a frog. Well, it's boring and ultimately the frog dies of it.Jonathan:Let's talk about ... there's a big area in the book where you talk about the sort of stages of a value conversation. I'm probably using the wrong terminology but there's a four step process, four conversations I don't think they're necessarily one after the other.Blair:[00:22:30] Think of it this way, I think of any sale in particular a consultative B2B sale you think of it as an arch of four conversations. It's a little trick that actors use when they're playing Hamlet which is over 4,000 words. It's like four hours to play it and they're told you view the role of Hamlet as you break it down it's just seven soliloquies so you just learn those soliloquies and that's essentially how you break the play down. I've [00:23:00] just chosen to view the sale as four conversations and the value conversation is the third in four conversations. It sounds a little bit ... maybe it sounds a little complex but I'll break it down for you a bit.The idea is if you see the sale is four conversations and then all of a sudden you're dropped into a sale, a prospect reaches out to you, reach out to them, you're introduced, whatever it is where you find yourself about to present a proposal, you just stop and ask yourself, "Which of the four conversations is this?" [00:23:30] Once you identify the conversation then you ask, "What is the objective of this conversation. Where am I trying to go in this conversation?" Once you know the answer that question then you ask, "Well what was the framework that I'm supposed to be using?" So what conversation and my in, what's the objective of this conversation, what's the framework I use.I describe them as four linear discrete conversations but they're not necessarily that way. It might all happen in one conversation, it might happen in six conversations. [00:24:00] Some of the conversations might happen out of order. You might have one call or meeting where you get one and a half way through two conversation ... through one conversation half of the next one you pick it up in the next one after but it's really helpful to think of it as four discrete conversations.The first conversation is the probative conversation, that's where you prove your expertise and you go in the mind of the client you flip and we actually call it the flip. You flip from the vendor to the expert [00:24:30] practitioner so ideally the probative conversation happens without you present. It happens through your referrals or your agents of thought leadership. A prospective client is reading something or saw a video you did or saw a speech or was referred by one of your best clients, they already see you as the expert so you're allowed to take some sort of control in the sale.The second one is the qualifying conversation. It's where you as the vet the lead to determine if an opportunity exists and what the next steps are so a lead is just [00:25:00] a clue to possible sale maybe somebody filled out a form on your website or somebody is active on your website or somebody reaches out to you or you call them. It's the typical sales conversation. You're typically ... when you're qualifying by voting against fairly standard sales criteria of need decision maker time frame and budget.The third conversation is the value conversation we'll come back to that. The fourth one is the closing conversation. I like to call it the transition conversation because when you handle the first three [00:25:30] conversations well, the closing conversation is really is simple as putting three or four options in front of the client and facilitating a choice and it's this seamless transition. When the previous conversations haven't gone well, you haven't done what you were supposed to do navigated to the place where you're supposed to navigate, then you're putting all of your chips on the closing conversation so closing becomes this big stressful thing and it really should [00:26:00] just be kind of a natural extension of the previous conversations.My framework with the value conversation is essentially ... it's the same as all of the frameworks I've seen out there with one step added so the standard three step framework for a value conversation is mission, sorry I got that wrong, objectives, measures value. I just came back from vacation. Objective, what are the business objectives we're trying to uncover? I [00:26:30] call it the desired future state. What is your desired future state Mr or Ms client? What's the place that you want us to help you get to?The second is measurement. How will we know when we've arrived there? What are the metrics? What will be true, what will we measure to know that this has happened? Then the third one is what's the value to you and your organization of doing this? Then the four step that I add is before you move [00:27:00] from the value conversation to the closing conversation is you offer pricing guidance so you give them a sense you've got the information on them about their desired future state, around how you measure success, around the value that might be created for the organization and the individual, and then you say essentially "Okay, now I'm going to go away, I'm going to put some options together for you and we'll reconvene and I'll walk you through those options but I want you to know that those options are going to be [00:27:30] in a range of X to Y."So, you offer some pricing guidance and one of the reasons you offer pricing guidance is I say X to Y it's really Y to X because you want to anchor high, I'm sure you've talked about this before but you want to anchor with the big number so Y to X and I have some frameworks for doing that. If there's a price objection, if there's something ... if you're talking so far beyond what the client is capable of bringing to bear resource wise then you want to know now [00:28:00] before you retreat and actually start thinking about what the solutions might be, the prices might be and the solutions you might deliver. That's it, that's four conversations. The value conversation is the third conversation in there and I have four steps for that value conversation.Jonathan:I love that last step you said it's ... you call it pricing guidance?Blair:Yeah.Jonathan:Like you said that sort of objectives metrics and value [00:28:30] are standard stuff, I've talked about it a lot before, the pricing guidance thing in the anchoring is really good. I've never done that but I can easily see how to slot that into the process, it would be completely natural and it would perhaps increase my close rate or decrease our proposals after rate but those numbers I'm already pretty happy of where they are but it's probably a good technique for people who aren't particularly happy with those numbers. How many proposals they're closing [00:29:00] based on how many they're writing.It's funny because I do a lot of the things that that does, I do elsewhere in the conversation. I'll do it earlier in the conversation. I'll hammer on what is a home run look like and how would that affect the organization so if I do some back of the net calculations we're talking about an extra million dollars a year to the bottom line something like that. I think that that's actually kind of hard to teach people so like when I'm trying to teach people how to do this that's pretty hard so [00:29:30] you really have to be thinking on your feet and asking all the right questions. It's cutting off like a black belt move. To just know that at the end of the conversation you're just going to like have a spot where you say "Look, this is going to be somewhere between a hundred fifty thousand on the high end and probably like 35,000 on the low end." That's just so much easier.Blair:Yeah, followed by a pause because silence is and I don't talk about this too much in the book but [00:30:00] if you can ... I think mastering silence is the single easiest most effective thing you can do to become a better sales person. If you can deliver a price or in this case pricing guidance and then say nothing, win the battle to not speak then because whatever the client says after you deliver the price range it's so valuable to you. There's so much information in there. If they say, " [00:30:30] Okay that sounds fine," you think oh wow all right, all my prices just moved to the right. They're all just right and if you get resistance even over the low number, then that might be a sign that you're trying to have a value conversation with somebody who just is not charged with future value creation or it might be a price buyer or they just don't see you as meaningfully different whatever the case is.So, that pricing guidance we have that built into the step, one [00:31:00] of the rules in the book and it's broken down into four sections. There's principles where I think everybody should just learn and understand and I have taken all the basic value based pricing and basic principles of economics that support pricing and delivered them in what I hope is a readable enjoyable way so you understand the principles. Then there are six rules and these rules are things that you do all of the time and then the largest section of the book is tips. It's actually guidance for specific situation and guidance for putting your proposals together, getting [00:31:30] into retainers, alternative pricing models, how do you come up with your high priced options, your middle price options, your low price options, all kinds of stuff.Then there's a fourth tool section that I want people to use ... actually write on when they're crafting their proposals but one of the rules I think it's the last one is, "Your client should always hear a price before they see a price." From your point of view it's you say a price [00:32:00] before you show a price and you don't find that guidance in the standard pricing literature because that's really something that comes out of the world of sales. If there's a price objection, you want to hear it before you go away and start crafting your proposal.Just think of all of the times maybe you've been in the situation by I know hundreds of people who have been in the situation dozens of times in their lives. It's plagued some sales people their [00:32:30] entire careers where they get into a closing meeting, they pull out the deck, they go through pages pages pages, they get to the last slide the last page, it's the price, there hasn't been a meaningful price conversation or value conversation, the client looks at the price and says, " We don't have that, we can't afford that," and then the sales person is just dejected. That's the moment where you say, "Well, how much do you have?" And you're willing to do it for whatever because you're so [00:33:00] over invested in the sale.Before you get to that situation, before you do any meaningful amount of work to dive into start to create the solutions and understand what the price would be, get some pricing guidance first. If the client can't afford you, you know you've got this target of X which is somewhere around 10% of your total income for the year, that you want each client to be spending at or above that amount, if they can't afford that you want to find that out early. You want to find that out early in the qualifying [00:33:30] conversation. That's the second of our four conversations is the first one where humans are actually speaking to each other. Remember the first conversation the probative conversation Ideally it's had through your thought leadership or your refers.In that first human to human conversation, it's your job to uncover that you know any kind of budget information and then you go through the value conversation and then you deliver what ... the client might say well I've got a hundred thousand dollars and you might be thinking, you're going to need a million but you go through the value conversation and [00:34:00] you uncover the fact that you expect to create $5 million a year in recurring value from this project then you could say ... so let's just say on the high end you say I'm going to come back with a range of ways that we can help you on the high end probably in the one to two million mark like 20 to 30% of the annual value that we would hope to create. On the low end if you really need me to come in with something at a hundred thousand dollars [00:34:30] I'll tell you what we can do for a hundred thousand dollars but I think this is an engagement of hundreds of thousands of dollars or more.Jonathan:Absolutely. That's a perfect segue into the ... well I guess the closing conversation so in the way that you do your proposals because I thought my proposals were short maybe five pages. You talk about running the sort of closing conversation with a single sheet with three options on it like it's a [00:35:00] Salesforce sales page or something. Let's talk about that a little bit so moving into the ... and also I'm sure you'll bring it up but just in case, the prices that you're throwing out there in your guidance, you don't know what you're going to do yet.Blair:You haven't even thought about solutions and that's one of the things that it's really hard when you're moving from hourly based billing, time materials, inputs, whatever you want to call it, it's really hard to get your head around because you're going to end every conversation already thinking about what you might [00:35:30] do and you really want to learn to move off of the solution and just think about the value ... focus on the client, focus on the value you might create for the client. Then from there you set prices and then at least price ranges, and then you start thinking about well what could we do in these ranges. So, yeah you think about solutions later and really, it's really that simple it really is. That's one of the rules is unpaid written proposals do not exceed one page.Jonathan:[00:36:00] Let's go again at this, I love this because I hate writing proposals so the-Blair:Hands up who loves writing proposals? (laughs) It's a promise that we've been making to our client for years. We will get you out of the proposal writing business and in exchange you take all of that free time and you devote it to writing thought leadership or creating other forms of thought leadership. The idea that written the unpaid written proposal needs to exist is just ... it's one of the biggest fallacies and I'm sure people are listening to this thinking, "Wow, nice theory Blair but [00:36:30] that's just not ever going to." I guarantee you there are hundreds of firms out there who limit unpaid written proposals to one page or even no pages just the ... because I've said for years the proposal is the words that come out of your mouth. Here's what we're going to do, here's what we propose to do, here's how long it would take, here's how much it would cost, if you're in agreement in principle we'll write up the details in the contract for your signature.That's how it should work and that changed for me when I started [00:37:00] to read Ron Baker's work on pricing and others and saw the importance of offering options. Always offer options and that's the second rule so your requirement to put, sorry, you have a requirement to put multiple options in front of the client and so when I saw the value of that, I realized okay, well we're going to have to write ... proposal is going to have to go on paper but no more than one page. As I say in the introduction [00:37:30] to the book, my first experience with this I was an ignoramus when it came to value based pricing and I was almost ... I was getting close to a decade into my consulting career and I was working with a very well known firm, design development firm has really set the tone for a lot of what other firms do today.I was working with them and I asked to see their proposals and they were one page with three columns and I think the one that I saw was column one was [00:38:00] 250 grand, column two was 400, column three was six or 650 and I couldn't believe what I was looking at and the owner said "Yeah we always do this." and I said "Well the clients don't ask like where did you get these numbers?" "No."Jonathan:I get students all the time that people do ask them that question and I just say tell them, you know the answer is this, past experience. You cannot let them try to dissect [00:38:30] the number it just turns into disaster.Blair:Yeah if you're really value based, if you're pricing based on value then they ask where did the numbers come from, well it's based in assessment of the value that we might create for you. So, you're in the value conversation which is the hardest part of all of this is having a good value conversations. One of the rules is master the value conversation but to master it you have to have a framework and you have to have lots of practice and if you can master it man you will go to the next level. If you're pricing based on value, you would [00:39:00] justify it not by anything other than saying, "I think that's compensation we would be comfortable taking based on the value that we have created for you with this option."Let's say you decide that it's a million dollars a year of recurring value if you do all of these things well. You offer pricing guidance and you've got to do some thinking on your feet but you come back and whatever options you come back with you are selling essentially the same thing. You are selling to the client their desired [00:39:30] future state that you uncovered in the qualifying conversation and you confirmed again in the value conversation so what's a place you want to get to? Discounted for uncertainty. Your most expensive option has the smallest uncertainty discount and your least expensive option has the greatest uncertainty discount but yours ... if you're selling based on value you're selling the same thing. You are selling to the client their desired future state discounted for uncertainty.Jonathan:Yeah, let's drill [00:40:00] into that. That's further down my list to talk about but now is a great time so a couple of ... I know from talking to perhaps thousands of developers that this is just another one of those things that's a tough mind shift to make when you're used to selling your hand, selling your inputs because all they think about is, "Well, how long is it going to take me?" and by extension they think that their price should be the same for absolutely every client. [00:40:30] It's like well it wouldn't be fair for me to price myself differently from quite a client because they're only thinking about the work that they do and then the thing they're not thinking about which is the only thing that matters to the client really is the results. The outcome that they're going to receive, the business outcome.One of the things I talk about a lot is when people are like oh jeez I just can't bring myself to put this you know we will be working together on a proposal that they're getting ready to present and I'll give them a number [00:41:00] for the top option and they're getting sticker shock. They're like I can't even ... I could not deliver this with a straight face because it's only going to taking me this long to do it and I'm like "Yeah but you're forgetting about risk, you're forgetting about stress, you're forgetting about capacity, you're forgetting about urgency, you're forgetting about all these other things that are super important to the client."You hammer hard on the uncertainty one so let's drill into that. Maybe you could ... you've already started talking about it but could you kind of define that and then maybe help people a little [00:41:30] bit with the black magic that you would use to kind of try to calculate that.Blair:Yes so there's a chapter in the book on selling risk and sometimes uncertainty is risk or risk mitigation and sometimes in the sale it makes sense to have that bit this very kind of overt on the table discussion. You might say I've got three options here for you Mr Client three different ways you can hire us, price tied a low I've [00:42:00] got kind of like the low risk option to you is the most expensive one and then I've got the higher risk it's more affordable ... it's the cheaper one, I wouldn't say more affordable, it's the cheaper one but you're taking on more risk and then the one in the middle is kind of a more balancing of the risk between you and me. You phrase it that way to the client and just think when you're constructing your options for your proposal, just think of it what's the most that we could do to take [00:42:30] the most risk away from the client and the risk free pricing, the ultimate risk free pricing would be contingency based pricing where it's you don't pay until we deliver on the desired future state.We hit, we deliver the objectives, we hit the measurements that we've identified and we create the value that we said we would help you to create. That's an example of that's the low that ... that's no risk [00:43:00] to the client, you take all the risk. So, if you chose to price an engagement that way and a lot of people are cringing thinking well we'd never do that, harden off, never say never. I'm not trying to make the case that developers should price this way but I am trying to make the case that you should be open minded about all of these engagements when you're pricing them and you might decide this thing is a sure thing on your end for whatever reason and I want to make a whole bunch of money and I want [00:43:30] to make all the client's risk go away and I know they're willing to pay to make that risk go away.You might consider taking an engagement like that from time to time. I don't think it should be a habit, I don't think you should have more than one client like that generally speaking at any one time, but everybody's risk profile is different. That's one way to think about the ... that's the lowest risk option to the client, the highest risk to you therefore the highest price to you.Jonathan:Yeah, and it should [00:44:00] be a very high price.Blair:Yeah very high, way beyond if you priced it at hourly, multiples it's really about the ... it has nothing to do with your input, zero. At the other end of the spectrum, if the highest risk offering you have to the client which is the lowest risk option to you is to sell time. Sometimes I think I favor selling time where you strip out all other forms of value and put it in front of the client. When [00:44:30] you're what Reid Holden author of Pricing with Confidence and Negotiating with Backbone, what he would call negotiating with a poker player. We all know what a value buyer is, a value buyer somebody who really is interested in the return on the investment. We know what a price buyer is, a price buyer someone who just wants the lowest price and they'll do whatever they can and they'll forego all kinds of other forms of value just to get the lowest price.A poker player according to Holden is a value buyer [00:45:00] disguised as a price buyer so when you suspect that's the case you might put this ... the client might be bluffing, might be just playing poker with you saying, "No, all I have is $50,000." And you might say, "Okay, heres option number one the expensive option, and it's $200,000," and he reacts "I told you I only have 50." "Yeah, I'm getting to that. Here's option number two, it's $85,000," so it looks a lot more affordable next to the first option, "Here's what we can do for $50,000, [00:45:30] I can sell you one block of time, X number of hours of one developer and it's $50,000. Am I going to get to project completion? I've no idea, I'm just selling you a block of time."It's paid in advance, so you communicate all of the things that the client doesn't get in that option by including them in the others. One would be terms, so there's no terms, one might be project management the involvement of a project manager, access [00:46:00] to principles, some sort of reporting, knowledge transfer, you name it. There's just all these other things you would do in the more expensive options, you just make sure that they do not ... they show up in the expensive options and they do not show up in the cheap option. You put it forward and you say to the client, "Well here's what we can do for $50,000, it's the riskiest option to you because frankly I don't think we can get it all done in $50,000 worth of hours. I think [00:46:30] at the least you should take the eighty five thousand dollar option."Jonathan:That actually might be a good segue into driving people to option two.Blair:Yeah, which is usually your goal so anchor high is one of the rules. You lead with the high price and the science behind anchoring is the first piece of information that you get on a subject matter skews your thinking about it as you make adjustments through kind of a second way of thinking. You never adjust fully to compensate for the first piece of information [00:47:00] so you make sure the first number they hear is a high price. It also makes the second price, the middle price seem far more palatable so you anchor high that's one of the rules, deliver the high price first. If you think of the low prices maybe where the client thought the budget was going to be, the high price is the anchor, most of the time clients will choose the middle one it's called extremist avoidance.They stay away from the extremes and they choose the safer [00:47:30] middle comfortable option so you want that comfortable middle option to the client to be in general I'm making generalizations here but more than they anticipated spending but it's less then the really high anchor and you have to remember the anchor is not there to be bought. It will get purchased from time to time, it's there to make the second option the middle option where you want them to buy look more palatable.Jonathan:Excellent, we are getting to time, man this went by fast. Can [00:48:00] we just do one last question, could you describe a little bit ... because I do not do this. I know a lot of people that do this I do not do it but I do believe it's a good idea just more out of ... just to sort of optimize my sales process to the point where I don't feel the need to do this but the presenting the proposal life. I write it up and I send it and if they want to buy they buy if they don't I don't care.Perhaps in there's sort [00:48:30] of a luxury position there where I can just not care that much but now let's say that I did care and I really wanted to maximize my odds of closing a deal and someone has their three options on one piece of paper as you described, how would you actually execute that conversation in the real world? Would you go there, is this over the phone, is it a screen share, what do you talk about, how long is the meeting, could you just give me and the listeners a picture of what that looks [00:49:00] like?Blair:Yeah, it really doesn't matter the format of the meeting whether it's a face to face meeting a web meeting or a phone call as long as if it's a phone call somebody has got access to email if they're on the phone unless they're on a landline phone and those don't exist anymore. You can send the one page proposal over once everybody has convened so proposals, we used to think of them as most people still do as these big rambling things that you stay up all night creating. You [00:49:30] kind of lob them in over the fence via email and then you sit and wait back to hear a response and that's like your clients putting you in the proposal writing business. How many firms out there whether they're creative firms or they're developer shops, how many firms out there just crank out, take on all of this extra work that's largely unnecessary to create these proposals then they lob them over the fence and now they have no power they're just sitting there waiting?It's really ... you should deal with it [00:50:00] this way, I will create, you the sales person, I will create a proposal for you Mr client. In exchange, you will assemble all of the people who need to be ... all of the what we would call on the sale side decision makers, you would assemble all of the key decision makers on your team for a brief phone call, web meeting, face to face meeting, whatever it is for us to review it and I'll share it with you once we all get together. That's the trade, [00:50:30] there's no inherent reason why the client should expect that they can put you to work creating a proposal and then disappear on you. If you just stop and think about it for a couple minutes you realize that's absurd.You wouldn't let other people treat you this way. You're putting together a proposal in exchange for them getting together to consider the proposal and then agree at the end of the meeting what the appropriate next steps are and you've got everybody you say all right so you recap [00:51:00] the value conversation, these are the objectives you're trying to hit, what we call the desired future state, these are the measurements that we talked about that we'll use to know that we've succeeded, this is the value we hope to create for the organization, I said I would come back with prices in this range of X to Y, I have three options here. I want to start with, actually it's Y to X, I want to start with Y the most expensive one, and you might say we first began by asking ourselves, "What would we [00:51:30] do if money was no object?" What would we do, what's the most we can do to take away is much uncertainty from the outcome is possible?Jonathan:That's great.Blair:Here's the solution we came up with and here's the price. Then you can go to the middle one or you can go ... I really fill it out from situation to situation but you can go to the cheap one and say at the low end of the spectrum, here's the ... you said you wanted us to come with a proposal that was at the seventy five thousand dollar mark so we ask ourselves what could we do for 75,000. We're not [00:52:00] huge fans of this one, we think you take on a whole bunch of risk there but maybe if that's a trade you're willing to make then you know maybe that's the option for you. In the middle we've got something that's somewhere in between and it's 125,000 or whatever it is. That's just an example of how you would frame that conversation.Jonathan:I absolutely love the if money were no object line. It's just so good. We could probably talk all day so let's wrap it up there. Thanks so [00:52:30] much for coming on the show Blair, where can people find out more about you?Blair:Thanks Jonathan, my pleasure to be here so I'm on winwithoutpitching.com and they can buy the book Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour at pricingcreativity.com. It's available only on the website and then after you buy it and read it I'd like you to go back to that page and see how many of the principles in the book were used in the pricing of the book.Jonathan:Awesome and when is it available [00:53:00] for purchase?Blair:January 10th.Jonathan:January 10th ladies and gentlemen, pricingcreativity.com. Thanks again Blair.Blair:Thanks Jonathan my pleasure bye bye. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Corey Quinn is a consultant who helps companies fix their horrifying AWS bills. In this episode, Corey explains how he monetized his technical expertise by selling sponsorships for his weekly mailing list. Links Last Week in AWS Quinn Advisory Group Corey's Twitter Corey's sponsorship page ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Former software consultant Brian Dunning talks about transitioning from hourly billing for dev work to donation supported content production. Description My guest today is Brian Dunning. Brian is an old friend who I met back when we were both building FileMaker solutions for clients who we billed on an hourly basis. Over the years, Brian has transitioned away from trading time for money to the most purely value-based model I've ever encountered: he now runs a donation supported non-profit called Skeptoid Media. As a former dev, I wanted to have Brian to hopefully inspire you to consider packaging up and selling your expertise in an novel way. Enjoy... Links Skeptoid podcast Brian's personal site Brian on Twitter Closing The next time someone asks you for your hourly rate, this is what you should say: "I don't have one." To learn what to say next, visit http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Shopify guru and former Wordpress developer Kurt Elster explains how he monetized his technical expertise by selling sponsorships for his podcast. Links Kurt's press page Kurt's Twitter Kurt's sponsorship page ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

How to recognize and handle the anxieties of running your own business with guest Dr. Sherry Walling Guest Bio Dr. Sherry Walling is a licensed clinical psychologist who helps high-performing professionals meet their potential to enjoy personal well-being, life satisfaction, and a sense of meaning. She has a PhD in clinical psychology and two master’s degrees. In addition, she completed research fellowships at Yale University School of Medicine and the National Center for Posttraumatic Stress Disorder. Through her podcast (zenfounder), her speaking engagements, and her consulting work, Sherry helps entrepreneurs, freelancers, and executives with burnout, anxiety, existential angst, conflicts, major transitions, and personal balance. Links Sherry's site ZenFounder.com Jonathan's Mentoring and Slack community MastermindJam ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Money is worthless if you can't exchange it for something you want. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Push past your clients self-diagnosis to unlock more valuable outcomes. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

A real world example of the subjective value of money. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Jason Swett shares lessons he’s learned in the process of ditching hourly. Guest Bio Jason Swett is a web developer from Sand Lake, Michigan, who has been freelancing since 2011. Jason has historically billed by the hour but in the last couple years he has figured out how to start transitioning into value-based pricing." Links Million Dollar Consulting by Alan Weiss Better Training Exercises by Reuven Lerner Jason’s Book Jason’s Consultancy Transcript Jonathan Stark: Hello and welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today I'm joined by a guest Jason Swett. Jason is a web developer from Sand Lake Michigan, who's been freelancing since 2011. He has historically billed by the hour but in the last couple of years he has figured out how to start transitioning into value-based pricing. Jason welcome to show. Jason Swett: Thank you. Jonathan Stark: Can you tell folks a little about yourself, what you do? Jason Swett: Sure. I'm a software developer, I have been for most of the last 15 years. I got started writing code for money in about 2000. My first job was actually working for my dad. We did that for a little bit and then got my serious start in 2005, doing PHP stuff, did that for a while and switched to Rails and been doing that ever since. The vast majority of that time has been either regular employment or hourly contracting but then in recent months, recent years, I've been transitioning into other better types of billing, which I think is what we're going to talk a little bit today. Jonathan Stark: That would be great. We've exchanged a few emails leading up to this and you sound like a really big win that you had this year in the training space, which I'd love to talk about. But in the pre show you also mentioned something about ... We were talking about how people will tend to call themselves consultants when really they are just freelancers or contractors and that there is a distinction there. It's not like you can just say, "I'm a consultant now." Even though I think it's good to push in that direction, to move yourself to be perceived or fulfill the role of a consultant because it's higher value. Can you talk a little bit about what you see as the distinction between contracting and consulting. Jason Swett: It's a great question. Freelancing 101 is like don't call yourself a freelancer because when you use that word and then prospects or clients hear that, there's something about it that conveys low value. Like you are a tool that's to be used. They tell you what to do, they make the plans and they tell you to implement the plans. So it's much better if you're perceived as a consultant. And the differences there to me is that rather than being an implementer, you're somebody who helps formulate the plans and then somebody else does the implementation. So that's a much better term to use. Consulting is way better than freelancer. But I think a lot of people who call themselves a consultant would really, 100% of their work is contracting. So the difference between consulting and contracting is again, with contracting you're an implementer. Somebody else is coming up with the plans, they have an understanding of what the reasons are behind what they're doing and they made all the decisions and now it's your job to just do what you're told. Whereas when you're a consultant, you're more being paid ... Let me put it this way. A contractor, they pay you so they can tell you what to do. When you're consulting, they pay you so you can tell them what to do. Jonathan Stark: Absolutely and it's not just as simple as labeling yourself that, one or the other because in my experience people who are used to being a freelancer, or a contractor whatever you want to call it, have their entire business and mentality organized in a way that optimizes for being told what to do and for doing things like nailing down really specific scope of work so that they can turn around and blame the client if it goes over budget, while I just did what you told me to do. It's not as simple as just saying, "I'm going to call myself a consultant." You actually have to make that shift. A big difference for me I think, when you start to feel yourself or if you're a freelancer now or you call yourself a freelancer or a contractor now, on a relatively, regular basis, you push back on clients and say, "Now I can't let you do that. That is a major mistake." The way a doctor would if you said, "Hey, take out my appendix." And they're like, "Your appendix isn't the problem." The doctor is not going to take out your appendix just 'cause you told them to. When you start behaving like that, then it's safe to start calling yourself a consultant, because you're right. The client is looking for someone who has expertise in the space, that they respect, they trust the consultant, they value that honesty and expertise. Jason Swett: I don't think it's a binary thing like you kind of alluded to. Just because you're a contractor, doesn't mean you're not going to be doing consulting type stuff some of the time, hopefully you are. Just because they're paying you to tell you what to do doesn't mean that you can't offer opinions and advice and stuff like that. Jonathan Stark: It's a good sign when you find yourself doing more of that. Some people listening to this will recognize that they do a lot of that at the beginning of an implementation, they don't charge for it, or they just charge for the hour by it or it's perhaps even part of the scoping of the work and may not even be paid to get the proposal together for the estimate. So if you recognize that you're doing that kind of stuff, then you're a candidate for perhaps orienting your business a little bit more around that, more high value, those more high value activities and less around the labor. Jason Swett: And just this is kind of a quick side note. I've found that it can be very difficult to start a relationship in a contracting kind of arrangement and try to move it more toward a consulting type arrangement 'cause you've already sent them the signal that you're a pair of hands. So it's very hard to shake that off once you've sent them that signal. It's much easier to start the relationship off under the understanding that they're paying you for advice and guidance and stuff like that, rather than try to retroactively become that person. Jonathan Stark: It's like trying to get out of the friend zone. Jason Swett: Exactly. Jonathan Stark: It's hard. I see it often that it's probably no more difficult to attract new fresh clients for this new fresh position or maybe a new product or service that you're going to orient around, a more prescriptive or diagnostic offering than it is to try and change the way past clients view you. It can be very tricky. I've seen people do it, but they're usually people who are more mature business wise and have really been sort of straddling the consulting/contractor world with their clients. Jason Swett: Here's another really significant thing about that, is there's one thing, which I mentioned which is the perception thing. At the beginning of the relationship, they have a certain perception of who you are and what they're paying you for. The other thing is that, at least I have found, the kinds of buyers who buy contracting work and the kinds of buyers who buy consulting work, don't have a heck of a lot of overlap. Like for example I'm thinking back to my client who I'm just wrapping up a month's long engagement with. This engagement was a total contracting engagement. And I was one of like seven developers, all with the same kind of role, just being paid to write code by the hour. The idea of having a consultant, it just doesn't fit into their picture at all. Like if somebody tried to pitch that to them, it just wouldn't compute because that's not part of their world, that's not part of their organization at all. But then there's other people, like for example this contracting gig right now, this is for a software company. But I'm talking with somebody later today about a different project where it's not a software company. The people there, they know about their domain. I guess I can say that it's a grocery store. This prospect is a grocery store. They know about grocery store stuff, they don't know about software stuff and so what they need is totally different and we're starting from a different place. The thing I'm trying to convey I guess is those buyers are like two different groups of people. Jonathan Stark: Big time. And that can make this shift very difficult. So I'm going to go on a short run really quick about Valley startups because have a lot of students who start off doing stuff augmentation, hourly typing semicolons for valley startups. I've gotten in trouble because Uber is a startup technically. I wouldn't say Uber would be potentially a bad client, they're probably a very mature startup. I'm talking about people who would want to pay you in passion and pizza and equity and expect you work 80-hour weeks typing code for some phantom customer that maybe will appear someday. They maybe looking for their angel round or first round of funding, they don't really have any kind of product market fit yet, there's just basically an idea and they're rolling the dice to strike at it. "We're going to be the next Facebook." The tricky thing there is to, just to give an example of exactly what you're saying is that a Valley startup, the CTO of a Valley startup is not impressed with your Rails skills, they would probably rather do it but they just don't have time to do it. So it's a situation where it's like cobbler's kids type of situation. Cobbler's who got no shoes, they do not want to hire another cobbler to make those shoes for their kids. But if they have to they will, but they're going to be the worst kind of client. They're going to be super picky about exactly how those shoes get made and they're going to be critical of every little detail because there's this pride issue. To convert that customer into a consulting arrangement to view you differently. Is exactly like you said, it's just wrong kind of client and to convert them over is virtually impossible. Jason Swett: It's a different problem. You've mentioned the cobbler analogy, it's a bandwidth problem whereas with a non technical problem it's an, I have no idea what to do problem and I need you to help me figure out what I need to do kind of problem. Two totally different kinds of problems. Jonathan Stark: I love that, that's perfect. Just shift gears a little bit. You mentioned earlier that you've moved into a little bit different space where you find it much easier to provide a price and not be doing hourly estimate. Can you talk about that a little bit, the training stuff? Jason Swett: Sure. And let me give a little bit of background to like I want to give an example of when I tried value pricing and it went horribly and contrast that with this more recent value pricing and it went quite well. Jonathan Stark: Perfect. Jason Swett: I started freelancing in 2011 and pretty soon after I started freelancing I read the book Million Dollar Consulting by Alan Weiss, which Jonathan I know you're an Alan Weiss fan and I am too. But when I read that book the first time, I completely misunderstood it. I took the value based pricing part of the book and I'm like, "Okay this makes sense, I'm going to start doing value based pricing now." So I went and worked for a startup that was local to me and it was a total ... From their end it was intended to be a staff aug type thing. But from my end, even though it really was a staff aug type thing, I tried to value price it. But the way it ended up working out in practice is every couple of weeks or every week or whatever we would talk about what we want to accomplish over the next little bit and I would take all the separate features that we were going to do in that sprint or whatever you want to call it. And I would come up with an individual price for all those and then I would submit those prices and they would say, "Okay." And then I would work on those things and deliver the features. It might sound okay but it was a total nightmare because just imagine all the overhead involved in like estimating all that stuff and coming up with the prices. On a weekly basis and then like having and individual mini negotiation on each individual feature. It was just exhausting for me and for them and it was like awkward and weird and stuff. Then there the issue of bugs. How do you charge for bug fixes and stuff like that. My policy back then was that if I give you a feature, it should work. And so bug fixes are free. But I was applying these features on top of like a horrible legacy code base that was extremely unstable in the first place. And so it's like, how can I guarantee that things are going to be bug free, it was just complete insanity. By the way, I made a huge mistake with that project that had like rippling effects over the next 18 months that I worked on that project, which was there as an existing product in place and I was hired to basically reverse engineer it and build a new version of it in a different framework. The spec our agreement was the existing app, just build the other one that does what this does. But the problem with that, you know Jonathan and as I know now is, you don't know everything that that original app does. Jonathan Stark: And parts of the original one are broken. So are you supposed to reproduce that? Jason Swett: Exactly. And there are all these like external communications that I didn't know about and all the stuff. And it was a total disaster. So it was just a number of mistakes like compounded there but my point is I tried to apply value based pricing to a situation where value based pricing did not apply. Jonathan Stark: That is fascinating to me because it would never occur to me to ... There are probably lots of people listening that have kind of followed that are kind of following the same thought process that you went through at that time, which had never even occurred to me that somebody would try and apply that at micro level like that. I value price pretty much exclusively for an entire project with a defined outcome. It's much more macro than that, it's very much like ... Three months would be a first one. It's usually 6 to 12 months. Jason Swett: I think the key word is outcome. You're pricing an outcome as opposed to pricing individual features like [inaudible 00:15:19] week. Jonathan Stark: It's like pricing a sprint. Men that's brutal. I'm surprised they even put up with it. Jason Swett: I know. Well it wasn't the greatest relationship in the world believe it or not. Jonathan Stark: Somehow I believe it. So that's the oops, that's the before picture. Jason Swett: Right. Jonathan Stark: So what's the after picture? Jason Swett: So that was like 2011, 2012 and then fast forward to today. So like 2016 and 2017 is when these projects are surfacing. Om 2016 in the Summer time, I got an email from a guy I knew just from the local Grand Rapids Michigan Development Community and I want to mention something that's kind of relevant and important. I give talks at local user groups kind of a lot and I have for like the last five years. So I knew this guy just from doing all these talks and stuff like that. Just even from participating I would have met him anyway. But he sent me an email and he said, "Hey, these guys need an instructor for this bootcamp, they had somebody back out at the last minute." So I had a conversation with these people and things went well and we were talking about having me jump in and it was a very last minute thing, it was like a five-week bootcamp. And the guy like a week or two before, I don't know why but he just was no longer available so they're in a really tight spot. And we walked about doing something together, ultimately we did not. They ended up getting somebody else for whatever reason. But then a couple of months later, those same people reached back out to me, the people who ran the bootcamp and they said, "Hey do you want to lead a bootcamp next year?" So we talked about that. I'm trying to think back to what questions I asked and like just how I generally approached that conversation. But the first thing I asked them was like, "Why do you want to have me do it? Obviously you've been doing something before. Why not just keep doing that." And what I'm talking about of course is the why conversation, which is just why this, why now, why me, why in this manner etc. I pick another way, you put that Jonathan it's like try to talk them out of hiring you. Jonathan Stark: Raise all the objections immediately because you're going to have to face him at some point so you might as well do it before you have to break the proposal. Jason Swett: Right because if there's any good reason that they shouldn't hire you, they shouldn't hire you. Try to get that reason out and you've vigorously tried to find that reason and you can't find it, then you have a pretty good case that they should hire you. Jonathan Stark: You made the sale. Let me just do a quick aside people because I know that probably 99% of the people listening to this, feel like they hate doing sales because they think sales is a particular used cars, slimy thing. But that doesn't have to be the way it is. I'm almost hesitant to even bring this up because what you're doing with that, they why conversation and talking about working with you. You're closing the sale, like that is the sale. By the time I read a proposal I can only think of one proposal in the last like five years that I have rejected and I know exactly why got rejected. I totally screwed up the conversation. Like I didn't make the sale on the phone call and I just blew the call then I wrote a proposal anyway 'cause it was a huge client, I really wanted them and that was why I screwed up the call 'cause I wasn't in the right place mentally. I wanted the client too bad, I would have pretty much done anything to get this client. Of course that me come across like a sort of in a servile way, which is not what they were looking for. Huge mistake. What I'm trying to call out though is that, if you do ... I love that word vigorously. If you vigorously try to talk them out of working with you and you cannot do it, you just close the sale because they now believe, they have just told you why they can't choose any option except for you and you are now convinced that they are going to benefit from the engagement and as a side effect you'll get a sense of how much it's worth to them, like the value of the engagement. Then you can say in your mind, "I get the sense the value of this is X so I'm going to charge them a 10th of X. I could price it at a 10th of X or half of X, less than X. Is that a profitable price for me is that higher than my costs? And if it is, it's going to happen. The pros are not going to get rejected. It's a way of doing sales in a way that isn't tricking the other person, it's a way of making sure, really confirming that you're a good fit in every way, personality, ROI everything. I think if more people recognized that sales doesn't have a to be [inaudible 00:20:38] then they could embrace it a little bit more and actually be running a business instead of being told what to do all the time. Jason Swett: I totally agree and something that took me a long time to realize that sales is not mostly about persuasion, I don't think it is. I agree. It's more about connecting somebody who needs something with somebody who can give them that thing. And there's kind of two steps. The first step is matching up the person who needs something with the person who can provide that to them. But there still exists a barrier which is a lack of trust. And so to me the sales process is taking that barrier and removing the reasons they have to maybe not trust you. That's all it is, it's not about arguing them into hiring you, it's more identifying first of all ... Perry Marshall said sales is a disqualification process. I thought that was a really interesting quote because again like I said before, if there's any good reason for them not to hire you, then they really shouldn't hire you. If there's any legitimate reason why you should not work together either for reasons on their end or for reasons on your end, get those reasons out there in the beginning because not talking about those reasons, doesn't make those reasons not exist, it just make it so those reasons get surfaced further downstream after more time and money or whatever has been invested and it's just more painful further downstream. So get that stuff out there at the very beginning. And I say to prospects, the very first thing I like to do when we start talking is ask the question, "Is there any reason why we shouldn't work together? And if so let's get those out there right now at the very beginning." And people really appreciate that, they appreciate that frankness and they appreciate the fact that I'm respecting their time in that way. So I think that's a really great way to start those conversations. Jonathan Stark: This is turning into a fun, potentially a very long conversation. Because this is opening up all sorts of ... Thinking of a video I just watched with Gary Vaynerchuk who is totally random in this conversation but he gives startup conversation by saying, I'm just going to try and quote him. But it's something like, he said, "No matter what the negotiation is whether it's an employee asking for a raise or me trying to close a deal with Nike to do their marketing. The first thing I try and do is say, look let's cut to the chase. I want you trust me as first as possible. So let's just get everything on the table. If you don't trust me for any reason, what is it?" He's very iconoclastic, very bombastic type of guy if you don't know who he is. And he just goes straight to the trust issue, which is really the cracks of the problem in many cases. Jason Swett: I don't think I would quite so bold as to phrase it that way, but here's the only reason you don't trust me, what is it? But you can bring up the same thing in different ways. Jonathan Stark: Yes I agree. I mean it's a personality thing with him, he's just a crazy person. Let's switch to- Jason Swett: Back to the story. Jonathan Stark: Sorry I totally took us down the rabbit hole. Jason Swett: Those are good things to talk about. So at this point in the story, I was having my initial contact with this prospect asking them why me. Well, it turns out that before they had used the training company to deliver to this bootcamp. There were some cost reasons and there was some like flexibility reasons why they wanted to go directly with an individual, somebody like me. So we talked about that and there wasn't a heck of a lot to the possible reasons not to work together. The biggest reasons are usually like, is this not the kind of work that I really do? Or is the kind of money you're expecting to pay not the kind of money that I typically charge? Or just timing, I'm I not available when you need the help? We were talking about this in Fall of 2016 when the bootcamp happens in the Summer of 2017. My Summer 2017 was looking pretty free at that point in time so the availability thing wasn't an issue and the qualification thing was fine because the technological part of it was pretty open ended, they were going to kind of look to my expertise to help guide that stuff. Jonathan Stark: Good sign. Jason Swett: That takes care of those possible reasons not to work together, so that just leaves money. They asked me to send them a proposal and I said, "Sure absolutely, I'll do it by the end of the day, Friday or whatever." Jonathan Stark: Is the bootcamp a public thing that they're like selling seeds or is it an internal thing that they do for companies? Jason Swett: Great question. This is like a government funded thing in my understanding. I'm a little bit shaky I'm like this part of it but the idea is that they want to help the Michigan economy. So it's funded by a grant and they take these recent computer science graduates. They're kind of filling the gap between, I just graduated from college and now I'm going to be an entry level programmer somewhere. They don't really teach all the skills in school that employers would like to see in an entry level person, so they kind of fill in that gap. The class size is 15 students, people apply and get accepted. I don't think it actually costs anything for the students, it's all funded by this grant. Jonathan Stark: Fascinating. Jason Swett: That was an interesting factor in coming up with the price. 'Cause there's not really a monetary ROI that can clearly be calculated there. If I save you a million bucks and I charge you $20,000 for that, that's a no brainer for you. But in this case it's a little bit mushier. Basically I thought about that, and I'm like, I don't know what their ROI is, I don't think they know and I don't think they can know exactly what their ROI is. So all I can do is come at it from the other direction, which is, what would be enough for me. So I started with my costs and people might not associate that word the way that I associate it. And I got this from you Jonathan, which is, you cost is your time. You can't really do anything for free. If I spend the day working on something and you pay me X for it, I'm not a head X. If you walk up to me and you give me a thousand dollars, then that's a thousand dollars of free money. But if you give me a thousand dollars to do a day's worth of work, it's not really a thousand dollars worth of free money. It cost me a day of my time to do that. Jonathan Stark: That a thousand is the revenue not the profit. Jason Swett: Exactly. And if there's a job, let's say that I generally work for a thousand bucks a day and I'm comfortable with that fee but then somebody comes along and they offer to pay me $10,000 for a day of work, the way I think about that and I think different people could think about this differently. But the way I think about that is if my normal rate is a thousand dollars a day but I get something that's $10,000 for a day of work, then my profit for that is $9,000. It could be argued that that's not really like the perfect way to think about that, but that's kind of how I think about that. Jonathan Stark: Let me just explore that a little bit because it's utterly subjective. The scenario you just described is actually valid in my opinion because if you're used to a particular level of income then a dramatic shift, like all of a sudden somebody is willing to pay you 10X for basically the thing that you've been selling for a 10th of that. It's going to feel like profit. But if that keeps happening, all of a sudden 10,000 per day is going to be your cost and it's going to take somebody to give you a hundred thousand to turn your head like that again. This feels very squishy to people but I honestly believe that when you're talking about knowledge work which is really what we're doing, the only way to calculate your cost is to ask yourself what amount of money would I not even get out of bed for this? I would not accept X for this work. It doesn't matter what the reasons are, it could be that you just inherited a million dollars from your great aunt. It doesn't matter, the reasons would be different for every single person. It could be that you just paid off your house and now you don't have that $5,000 a month payment. So it doesn't matter what the reasons are but your cost is the least amount of money that you would accept for a particular gig which is completely subjective, it can change on a daily basis depending on what else is going on in your life and your business. But I can come up with no better way to calculate a cost. The screwed up thing is that that is what people will typically set as their price because they want to deliver the lowest possible price to increase the likelihood of lending the gig which means they're making no profit. That little scenario right there is super scary to me because that's one of the things that keeps people locked in this kind of fees famine cycle. Because they're constantly working for what they consider to be cost, they're working for no profit which gives you no days in the week to work on your business instead of in your business. Which it's just depressing to think about. So dear listener, next time you figure out, well what's the least amount of money I would take for this, put some profit on top of that number before you send the proposal or you're just breaking even. Jason Swett: I would add to that as a click aside, people price things lower with the assumption that a lower price is better, that's not necessarily true. I think Alan Weiss's the Mercedes example and my example might be a little different but if I go to the dealership and I want buy a $150,000 Mercedes, that's because I consider myself the kind of person who deserves a $150,000. And if you offer me a $40,000 used Mercedes, that wouldn't be more attractive to me even if the product is identical, I consider myself the kind of person who buys $150,000 cars, and so I want $150,000 car. I don't want a $40,000 or an $80,000 car. I want to pay a lot for it, because that is consistent with my self concept. Jonathan Stark: I heard a quote the other day that crystallized that beautifully, I think it was the CEO of Porsche who said the second Porsche on the street is a catastrophe because you want to be the only guy on the street that owns the Porsche. If they were 40,000 bucks, that can happen. If you're that kind of person, and those people exist that's the key point. Those people exist that want the Mercedes, that want the Porsche. Those people are out there and they want to be in this exclusive club. People like us do things like this, to quote Seth Godin. Jason Swett: Yeah, people like us do stuff like this. That makes sense. Jonathan Stark: They want to be people like us, they want to be in that crowd. This is why when you go to something like an agency like Blind or IDEO, they've got this client list, their position is horrible. IDEO's position is horrible but if you go there on their website. You see this client list that basically does the marketing job for them because any kind of company that wants to be in the club with Nike and Coca-Cola and Apple is immediately going to consider IDEO because they're like. "That's the club I want to be in, the price is not the main issue." And the price actually prevents the rabble air quotes from getting access to the same level of, let's call it luxury. So it's a very anti-Marxist kind of way to think about it. Jason Swett: It's an important thing to understand though, I think people make the assumption that cheaper is better, not true. Jonathan Stark: And sure if you have nothing to differentiate yourself from your competitors then the only thing you can compete on is price. So you should be constantly striving to come up with a way to differentiate yourself from your competitors, perhaps make yourself the only one in the category so that price becomes a non-issue. Jason Swett: Even if you have noted differentiation, even if you're providing the same exact service, the kind of client that's going to pay me a hundred bucks an hour for development isn't going to pay me 10 bucks an hour for development. There's a few reasons for that, one is because they think, how good can you be, but also they're not the kind of place that only pays $10 an hour for development. Anyway I think we got way off track with that, so I'll get back to the story. Jonathan Stark: It's good stuff though. Jason Swett: Yeah, I wanted to touch on that 'cause it's super, super important to understand that. But where we were at with the conversation with what the prospect was, it was almost time to give them a proposal. Now before I agreed to send them a proposal, I wanted to get an agreement on what we're going to do. I wanted to get what Alan Weiss calls conceptual agreement. 'Cause if that proposal gets rejected, I want it to get rejected because the price is too high, not because the stuff in it is wrong. So I make sure to get really on the same page, took notes on what we talked about, repeated that back to them and said, okay, here's what we've talked about, here's my understanding based on what we've talked about. Is this consistent with your understanding? If not how blah, blah, blah. I got that all straightened out. About a half a page worth of stuff to summarize what we talked about. Then I did my calculation. Like I said, I could only calculate, I had been charging a hundred bucks an hour for quite some time for development. So I said, "Okay a hundred bucks an hour times 40 hours a week, times five weeks is a certain numbers." I don't know what that is. But that was like my minimum price, that was like my, I wouldn't even get out of bed to do this. Then I considered other factors like, if I were to do this project that takes five weeks, I'm going to have to move to where this bootcamp happens, 'cause it doesn't happen where I live. So that's a cost. I'm going to not be working for anybody else during that time and I'm going to have to wrap up any projects that I have going on before that and then afterwards it's going to take some time again probably to get another project lined up. So that's another cost. Those are fuzzy things that aren't like super concretely quantifiable but I kind of figured out some numbers and put those numbers on there. I came up with a certain number. I guess I'll talk about the numbers. My original fee that I was going to put on the proposal was 50,000. Jonathan Stark: For five week training. Jason Swett: Right. Then I had a call with the mentor type person and he said, "You should really charge him more like 100,000." And I thought, "Men." He had reasons and I could see that his reasoning made sense, it's like they were probably paying the guys before me something or close to a $100,000. But there's a certain limit to how big of a check you can ask for. It's like, there's a certain size of jump that's really hard to make psychologically. So I bumped it up from 50,000 to 65,000. I put that number in the proposal, I wanted to provide options but frankly I couldn't think of any, and we'll talk about that a little bit if you want to but I put that 65,000 price in there, submitted the proposal and here's something that's really important. I didn't email them the proposal and ask, "What do you think?" I said, "Let's get on a phone call and go over this proposal. I didn't send them the proposal until the time of the phone call. Here's the reason for that, if they had any objections, I wanted to have the ability to address those, right then and there. Rather than have them go think about it and get back to me. Jonathan Stark: Interesting. I'd never do that. But I've talked to enough people that do that to make me think that my way is not necessarily the only way. 'Cause a lot of people do this. The thing that feels a little off about that to me and I'm not saying this is incorrect. But the thing that seems strange about it to me is that's an extra sales call. And if I was going to change the way that I do proposal and switch it to that, that would take a lot of pressure off me in the first phone call, which I want. I want the pressure in the first phone call to make the sale. Jason Swett: Interesting. Jonathan Stark: How does it go, when you do that? When you have that followup phone call, was there a negotiation? Like what we thought since I literally never done this. Jason Swett: There was no negotiation because we had gotten a conceptual agreement before. We had taken the disagreement on the scope, we pretty much eliminated that possibility. The only thing that leaves is the price. So we got on the phone, went over what the proposal said and it was like, "Is this an agreement worth what we talked about?" Still and he was like, "Yeah." Jonathan Stark: Let me just pause there. That feels awkwardly. Did you read it to them? Or did you guys sit there silently reading it? Jason Swett: So what I usually do with that, is I kind of go over the high points. I don't read it out word for word. But it's usually brief enough. Like I said, this one was half a page, it's usually brief enough that there's not that much to talk about. So we just kind of go over the high level points and then in this particular case he said, "Okay I need to get back to you regarding the price. So let me do that." And then we got off the call. Jonathan Stark: Were the payment terms in there as well? Jason Swett: The payment terms were in there. So I said, it could either be paid 100% up front with a 10% discount if it was paid 100% upfront. Or the other option was if they could pay 50% of it upfront and then 50% at some later date. And those terms probably sound very familiar to you. Jonathan Stark: Yes. Jason Swett: 'Cause that's the way you kind of do something similar right? Jonathan Stark: Exactly. Jason Swett: In this case, the person I was talking to was not the ultimate decision maker, which is the sales rules is talk to the ultimate decision maker, i just didn't have access to that person, couldn't figure out how to get to that person. So we ended up having one final call between myself, the person I just mentioned who I had to had the call with about the proposal and the actual decision maker. What they wanted to talk about which is kind of funny is a plan for what would happen if I died. Jonathan Stark: This happened to me once. Jason Swett: So if I died before this bootcamp happened, what happens? So we figured out like a backup person, stuff like that. But after that call, they came back and they said, "Yes, we'll do it." And they said, "We'll take you up on the 10% discount for upfront payment and what I didn't expect was that they interpreted that to me and like they could pay me any time before the bootcamp happened and still get the discount. So it was like a number of months before I got the first check. Next time I do that, I'm definitely going to include it like, it has to be within 30 days of when you say yes or whatever. Jonathan Stark: I'm not putting it on my calendar until the first payment is made. And because you had to make preparations that you described earlier, extensive preparations. Good move. Jason Swett: They did try to poke at my price a little bit. After we had an agreement, they came back and they said like, I don't remember how they worded it but they basically said, "Can you do it for less?" And I said, let me see if I can remember how I worded it. I said it like in general, "I'm open to negotiating prices and stuff like that but I have to have some kind of justification. I'm not just going to lower it for no reason at all. If we can do less stuff then that's the case where maybe we can change the price. But we can't just lower for no reason." I worded it better than that, kind of get the idea of where I came from and they responded to that was, "That's totally understandable." And we kept the original price. Jonathan Stark: I'm not one of these people but I know plenty of them who just always ask for a better price. It's just like a reflex action. And a lot of people freelancers, contractors they'll blink and they'll just, "Yeah, sure." I mean tons of people. Even you could go to a retail store in the mall and you can even get away with it. Some people are kind of hard wired not pay retail so to speak. But if you've gone through the steps that you went through and you just stick to your guns and say, "I gave it some thought but I just can't make a business case for decreasing the price. Do you have some rational argument as to why it's not going to work for you?" I try not to be stonewall, like a jack about it and say I'm open top conversation and be like thermal nuclear polite. But the odds of me changing my price are zero. They could reveal some information that they did not disclose that would cause me to change the nature of the engagement, which could result in a lower price. But outside of that I just make it a policy to never do that, because it makes my life and their lives just way easier because I train them just never do that. It's kind of like Wall Mart every day little pricing, "This isn't the price." Unless you want to buy something else than what's described here, that's the price. So we don't even need to go back and forth. Jason Swett: I think another thing that can make it less likely that they'll come back with that question is the options thing. So what I could have done better is I could have provided them with a few different options. Jonathan Stark: Absolutely. Jason Swett: If you give them just one price, the question is should we accept this proposal or should we not? But if you give them options, the question is, which one of these options should I choose? It goes from should we work together to how should we work together? Jonathan Stark: You can imagine what happens in the client organization when you send a proposal like that. It doesn't just floated up the chain to the real decision maker who then has a knee jack reaction to it. Instead, they have to schedule meetings, have discussions. They could take 15 man-hours of discussion or 30 man-hours of discussions. And what are they doing the whole time, they're talking about Jason. And there's just more and more Jason and they're constantly thinking about your word. Other vendors probably if they give them one price, they're just, "No, that's too high. That's absurdly low, they must be terrible. Or this is maybe another candidate and how can we compare them to Jason." So it's almost like your coming in as three vendors because you've got three options and three prices. Jason Swett: Yeah. I think the other psychological part of that is it gives them a feeling of control if you give them one single price, then you're like in the more powerful position. Jonathan Stark: It's [inaudible 00:46:03] Jason Swett: They only have the power to say yes or no and if they say yes, then that was kind of you doing something to them which they might not feel very good about. Whereas if you give them three different options, they have the power to choose one of those three and you didn't force them to do anything. They made the choice in what to do. Jonathan Stark: Like you pointed out, you couldn't come up with two other options. Jason Swett: I could now. But at the time, I couldn't think of any. Jonathan Stark: Interesting. Jason Swett: I'll list a couple of examples. Some of these things are things that they ask me to do and I said yes just because why not at this point. But if I were to do this again for a different prospect, these would be add-ons that would cost more. So here's one. Bringing in industry influencers to give talks to the group over Skype. Jonathan Stark: Genius. That's awesome. Jason Swett: I happen to be acquainted with people who have written books and stuff like that, technical books and so those people can be brought in to just give a quick Skype and I'll offer to pay these people. But the amount that they're going to charge for that is pretty trivial compared to the fee for the bootcamp, so I don't mind paying for that kind of stuff. But that's something that could make a really good add-on. By the way if you reach out to people who'll have written books it's surprisingly easy, just to like reach and say, "High." And they'll respond to you and you can form a relationship. Jonathan Stark: As someone who has written books and emailed people who have written books, if somebody went through the effort, the marathon that it takes to write a book, they're happy to talk about it. Jason Swett: Suppose they want somebody who emails you and they say, "Hey I loved your book, it really helped me out." I have such and such question. How do you feel about that job, is that annoying? Jonathan Stark: Hell no. No I love it. You also get ones that are just either too fumble-ish with no actual question just three paragraphs of this is my life, those are not great. And you also get ones that are a thinly veiled attempt to get you to promote their stuff. Those are super annoying as you can imagine. Those are both basically span. But when you get someone who starts off with like mind blown on page 15, the thing about asking for a 100% upfront, change the way I do business. But there's something I don't understand. You better believe I'm going to write that person a three page email back. Because they invested some time in the material, they are stuck in a place that makes sense to get stuck and there's perhaps a deficiency of the book. If you are thoughtful and polite of course you can definitely get a response from an author. Jason Swett: More of this story is like, if you read and enjoyed a book and if you have a question that can be asked and answered simply, reach out to that person and tell them that you enjoyed their book and ask you quick question, they'll probably be happy. What's not good is like a super indepth technical question that requires understanding your whole background. Don't do that. Jonathan Stark: Don't write two paragraph, write three sentences. 'Cause if you write a giant email to me, it's going to sit in my inbox and be like, "I'll read that when I have time, I'll read that when I'm not on my phone. I'll reply it." And then all of a sudden a month is gone by and I'm embarrassed to reply and then I just delete it. Jason Swett: Exactly. So anyway bringing in those people to give talks is one potential add-on. Another is one I call the library package. So me hand picking 10 or 15 or whatever an appropriate number of books would be and actually bringing in those books and giving them that package, that's another add-on. I'm trying to think of other things but you can kind of imagine the lines these are going along and I'm sure after I do the bootcamp, I'll have about a billion more ideas. I don't know it might be like water under the bridge as far as adding add-ons till this one goes, I really hope not. I hope there are things that I can offer next year that will be more valuable to them. But definitely for other clients. Jonathan Stark: That's all great stuff. The industry experts thing, that's a great idea. It's very low. It's a perfect example of something that's low cost and high value. Because if you have the connections or if you can make them or if you understand how to approach people like that, it's really not a lot of work. But the value is insane. I'm writing that one down. Thank you very much. Jason Swett: Awesome. Jonathan Stark: Of course bundling in other products like books and that sort of thing, that's also a pretty common thing to do. The tricky thing i, just to call out a training situation. I don't know what the direct ROI is, or even if there is an ROI because this is like a grand type of situation and really the ... Maybe you know this and just didn't bring it up yet. But the thing that I would want to know in my why conservation, I would want to find out how the buyers were being judged. Because it could be that they're being judged on some standardized test that students take annually after the thing and you could add a followup session with individual followup or office hours with the students or some proactive drip campaign with the students to refresh their memories about the material before the test. I'm just making stuff up. It sounds like it isn't 100% clear, is how the buyers are judged on their efficacy. Jason Swett: That's a great question. Jonathan Stark: If my hidden agenda on every client engagement is to deliver 100% client satisfaction. So they are like scrambling to hire me again, 'cause I'd much rather continue working with great clients than constantly looking for new ones. So I want to find out, almost this literally come out and say like, how I'm I going to blow your mind? What can I do to blow your mind? What is hugest possible home-run that can come out of this for you personally? And it's not in this scenario that you deliver an amazing training to the students, it's kind of like the MVP. That's almost like taking for granted table sticks. How can you go above and beyond to get this person a promotion or something like that. People will reveal this stuff because they want it. Jason Swett: And even if the don't know they might respond with something that gives you an idea for how yo can do that. Jonathan Stark: Or it might reveal that they're a gate keeper and that you need to talk to someone above. Jason Swett: So there's a couple of real quick things I wanted to touch on 'cause I know we're probably running close to time. Jonathan Stark: Yes we should run. Jason Swett: After that training engagement was a deal. I lined up a couple of other ones and these other ones were through a training company. So if you Google things like Ruby on Rails training or Angular training or whatever, you'll get all sorts of training companies. I think the first time I did this, I reached out to, it was something like 10 training companies, I reached out one day. Then within a couple of days I had like seven responses back. That's a crazy response rate. So it's very much in demand. But I formed a relationship with this one particular training company and they sent me to do a five-day Ruby on Rails class. This is actually just last week that I did this. They paid me for that, they paid me $6,250 for the five-day class. That may sound like a lot if I'm billing a hundred bucks an hour for a 40 hour week, that's $4,000. So 6,250, that's better. But my plane ticket had to come out of that and there was prep work and stuff like that. So it's probably about a wash compare to a 40-hour week. But it was much more enjoyable than a 40-hour week of coding, to me at least. It wasn't necessarily easier but it was more enjoyable. Jonathan Stark: There's stress and risk levels are in the basement compared to doing 40 hours of dev work. Because there's no debugging after a training class. Jason Swett: Exactly when you're done, you're done. So that was that and that was good and then I'm going and doing a different one. This is a three-day class and that one is $5,250 I think it is. But again air-fair comes out of that. So that one is even worse money wise but at this point I'm just kind of taking whatever training gigs I can get because in the future I know from talking with ... Well you know [Roving Lennon 00:55:33] Jonathan and he's talked about this on the Freelancer show. He charges five figure rates for a week class, would be like 15 and $20,000 for him. I'm pretty sure I can say that 'cause he has said that himself publicly before himself. So I'm working on getting to there, but I think before that I have to know how to do the training, nobody is going to pay me $15,000 to do a class if I haven't done one before. So [Roving's 00:55:59] recommendation. There's a whole episode he did on training if anybody listening is interested in that. His recommendation was to go through training companies first and then make your way toward the direct engagement. So that's what I'm doing. Jonathan Stark: You get some street cred, you get in front of people, you sort of build your expertise and delivering it. And by the way you presumably for these gigs through the booking agency, you bringing your own content, you're not teaching their content? Jason Swett: So these I just grab my own, a lot of them actually provide the content for you. Jonathan Stark: Really? I've done a few of these in the past. I think through Marakana before they got bought by Twitter. I did budget training for Cisco and it's good money, but you're not really building up your business but you're building up your skills. So it's sort of a strategic engagement. Jason Swett: Are those gigs from your books or some other way? Jonathan Stark: I honestly don't remember. I know I did not reach out to them 'cause I had never heard of them before. Somebody reached out to me probably recruiter style and they was like, "Hey, can you do remote training." It was all through WebEx so id didn't have to fly anywhere. It was in the thousands of dollars. It wasn't like amazing money but it was worth doing a four-hour class on whatever responsive web design or something. It was all okay. I was more interested in what's a great way to give a remote training. Jason Swett: And for people who have only ever done hourly coding before and you're wondering how the heck do I make the transition into consulting? It's a pretty good tow in the water to real consulting, if you can't figure out any other way to do it. Which, I couldn't figure out how to do it and this is helping me get there. Jonathan Stark: Right. It's because people are used to pay for training like a bulk purchase. The hours come up 'cause it's like, we;; it's going to be 95 for ... But that's not really the focus. Jason Swett: They're paying for the outcome. Jonathan Stark: Yeah, they're paying for the outcome. I'm curious, how many people are in these you just described, the 6,250 and the 5,000 something one? Is that like limited to a certain amount of students or are they just trying to pack the house? Jason Swett: The first one was six students. The second one the three-day class, that's going to be like 25 students. Jonathan Stark: Wow! That's a lot. Jason Swett: The 25 students one, that's like open enrollment. So just whoever at that company can go and take that class if they want to which leads to all sorts of interesting stuff too like different backgrounds and experience levels and stuff like that. So we'll see. But way different class sizes. Jonathan Stark: That's awesome. All right well, we should wrap up but I will tell people that they should search out [Roving 00:58:56] Learner if they're interested in how to get started with training. He is one of my co-panelists on the Freelancer's show podcast. Which we've been referencing here. So Jason, where can people get I touch with you online? Where can people find out more about you? Jason Swett: I think if you just Google my name Jason Swett, S-W-E-T-T you'll find my various web presences. I have a site angularonrails.com. That's a whole thing we didn't get into and I won't talk about very much, which is just I blog there, I wrote a book, if you're interested in that kind of stuff, you can see. That definitely helps with the consulting and selling consulting and contracting gigs and stuff like that. Then my business website is benfranklinlabs.com. Jonathan Stark: Nice. You missed your calling, you should have been a R&B singer with that name. Jason Swett: There you go. My family told me when I was a little kid, they told me I was related to Keith Sweat. I kind of discovered later that it was improbable. Jonathan Stark: And with that dear listener we'll wrap up this episode. This epic episode. This is great though. Thanks so much for coming on Jason. Jason Swett: I loved it. Thanks a lot for having me on. Jonathan Stark: Hey folks I just want to let you know, I recently upgraded my mentoring program to include six months of unlimited 24/7 access to my private Slack community. So in addition to unlimited emails and phone calls, you can now ping me in Slack at your leisure. You can find out more at expensiveproblem.com/mentoring. Hope to see you there. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

How to answer the world's most common cocktail party question ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Bait your hook with worms, not poptarts. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Clients are paying for outcomes, not outputs. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

What to say when the client reveals that they have an absurdly low budget. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Why clients don't always choose the cheapest option. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Joel Miller shares his first experiences using value pricing for project work Guest Bio Joel is co-owner and project manager at The Sky Floor, a web design and marketing company in the Chicago area. I asked Joel to come on Ditching Hourly to share with you his first experiences using value pricing for project work. Enjoy. Quotes "Hourly billing is a quagmire." —Joel Miller "My advice to someone considering value pricing is start with a new client." —Joel Miller "One of the things that really scares me about hourly billing is that everyone starts talking about money before anyone even knows why the work needs doing at all." —Jonathan Stark "Everything is practice for the next time." —Jonathan Stark Links The Sky Floor The Why Conversation Takeaways A great time to experiment with value pricing is when you're really busy ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The worst time to present yourself as a generalist is when you’re desperate for work. Ditching Hourly 032: The Irony of the Generalist In this episode, I'll give you a concrete example of how presenting yourself as a generalist will actually decrease the number of leads you get. Oh, the irony! That’s it for today. I’m JS and this is Ditching Hourly. Thanks for listening. The next time someone asks you for your hourly rate, this is what you should say: "I don’t have one." To learn what to say next, visit http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

$30 is worth more to some people than others Ditching Hourly 031: The Subjective Value Of Money Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today, I'm going to talk about the subjective value of money. LINKS Jonathan’s Card That's it for today. I'm JS and this is Ditching Hourly. Thanks for listening. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Are value pricing and agile development compatible? Jason Mundok joins me to talk about value pricing agile projects. Guest Bio Jason Mundok is a co-founder of Elusive Moose, an online business resource and community for software developers. He has been developing custom business applications since 2000 and has been successfully managing software development projects for over ten years. In 2012, Jason began training and coaching software development consultancies on implementing Agile methodologies for managing projects. He has published numerous white papers on the topic and presented project management topics at national developer conferences and regional technology meetups. You can find out more about Jason at elusivemoose.com. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Are you acting like an expert or an employee? Ditching Hourly 029: Be The Expert There's a Seinfeld episode where Jerry hires a carpenter to build him some kitchen cabinets. The carpenter is insanely, hilariously, indecisive and at every turn asks for Jerry's opinion about how he (the carpenter) should do his own job. "which hinge should I use?" etc You almost expect the guy to ask Jerry how to hold the hammer. My question to you is this: Are you doing the same thing with your clients? Yours, —J P.S. Here's a link to the clip: Indecisive Carpenter ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Finding the overlap between your target market's problems and the solutions your expertise can provide. Ditching Hourly 028: The Goldilocks Problem with guest Josh Robbs I'm joined by listener Josh Robbs who asks: I'm stuck and it might be a problem that other beginners (or people changing their positioning) have. Seriously, this is my ultimate positioning / expensive problem frustration. Might be some newsletter or podcast fodder. I'm supposed to find people with a problem I can solve. They need to know that they have a problem. They need to be able to pay for the problem to be fixed. They need to be interested in solving the problem. The problem needs to be expensive. If they're interested in and able to fix the problem, wouldn't they have fixed it? Smart enough to know they have a problem, not smart enough to fix it. Funded enough to afford the solution, not well off enough that they don't care. Ambitious enough to want the problem fixed, not ambitious enough to take care of it. The porridge can't be too hot, but it can't be too cold. I know that people who need, in my case, web design exist. But when I try to define them, they end up sounding... impossible. And if they were real, how would you find the right people since they all look the same. The "too rich to care", the "too broke to pay", and the Goldilocks clients all look the same. Something I can't get past. —Josh In our conversation we cover topics including: How to find a target market that is the right fit. How to spider a conference website to build market intelligence. How to your network the tools they need to help you. Finding the overlap between your target market's problems and the solutions your expertise can provide. Enjoy! —J ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Why you should be offering guarantees. Ditching Hourly 026: Why You Should Be Offering Guarantees Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today, I'm going to talk about offering guarantees. One of the tactics I advocate for increasing your fees is to offer some sort of guarantee. This typically horrifies developers. They immediately have visions of an unreasonable client demanding a 100% refund after six months of work.  Yikes, right? Still, I think you should consider offering guarantees.  And here's the thing... you probably already guarantee your work!  Ask yourself this: Have you ever eaten an hour to mollify a disgruntled client? Have you ever done some work for free because you screwed something up? Have you ever issued a refund because you ended up being a bad fit for a client? If you answered YES to any of these, then you ALREADY guarantee your work. So... Why not make your guarantee explicit instead of implicit? How and when to offer guarantees for the kinds of work that software developers typically do is a touchy subject. Over the years, I have offered different sorts of guarantees for different sorts of products and services. The type that I choose in a given situation depends on a variety of factors like: the type of product/service the level or risk involved the scope of work For example: Software projects - Case by case, but usually my guarantee is along the lines of “I’ll keep working until we’ve reached the stated goals” or “If at any point in the next 12 months a bug crops up, I’ll fix it for free.” rather than “I’ll refund your money for the entire project.” (This only works if you give a fixed price for the project, of course.) Monthly retainers - I offer full refund at any time during the first month to make sure we’re a good fit. No refunds after that.  Private speaking gigs - I do not offer refunds, even if client cancels prior to the event. They are allowed to reschedule at no charge, however.  Online training classes - No refunds, but student can retake for free.  For fairly fixed scope dev work (e.g., a productized service) that I can finish quickly, I’d offer a 100% money back guarantee on my sales page.  (I’d also price the service accordingly, but that’s another story.) So, for something like a half day of SQL performance tuning, I’d offer a 100% money back guarantee if the client was unhappy with the outcome.  I see this type of service as analogous to bringing my car to a mechanic to have it tuned up... if the car is still running rough when I leave, I’d expect them to either redo the work or refund my money.  Here's the key point about guarantees: Explicitily stating up front how you will “make things right” if things go wrong will differentiate you from the vast majority of your competitors. And remember: if you can’t differentiate yourself from your competitors, you’ll probably end up competing on price. That's it for today. I'm JS and this is Ditching Hourly. Thanks for listening. The next time someone asks you for your hourly rate, this is what you should say: "I don't have one." To learn what to say next, visit http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Special guest Ron Baker and I discuss the ethical challenges of hourly billing.The Ethics of Hourly Billing with special guest Ron BakerSpecial guest Ron Baker and I discuss the ethical challenges of hourly billing.Today I’ve got a very special episode of Ditching Hourly for you. I'm joined by value pricing pioneer, Ron Baker to discuss the ethical challenges of hourly billing.Ron is a recovering CPA who began value pricing in 1989. He’s the author of seven best-selling books, including: Pricing on Purpose; Measure What Matters to Customers; and Implementing Value Pricing. He’s the founder of pricing think-tank VeraSage Institute and a radio talk-show host on the VoiceAmerica.com show: The Soul of Enterprise.Just to give you a taste, here are some of the killer quotes Ron shares: “A service that’s guaranteed is worth more than a service that’s not.” “Would you want to get on a plane and be charged $4/min retroactively?” “Prescription without diagnosis is malpractice.” “If we don’t think we’re worth it, how will our customers ever believe we’re worth it?” LINKS Ron Baker on Twitter Implementing Value Pricing Pricing On Purpose Verasage Institute Extraordinary Guarantees : A New Way to Build Quality Throughout Your Company & Ensure Satisfaction for Your Customers "Bugs" Burger Bug Killers, Inc. The Backwards Bicycle The Soul Of Enterprise ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Value pricing is not a license to print money. Ditching Hourly 024: Value Pricing Cuts Both Ways Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today, I'm going to dispel the misconception that value pricing is a license to print money. Value pricing cuts both ways. It is not a magic wand that you wave and suddenly poof! you get to charge more for projects. value pricing - as the name indicates - is the practice of setting a price for a project based on the value that the project delivers. In this model, the price that you set has to be lower than the perceived value in the client's mind. Otherwise, they will have received a negative ROI. Here's an example: Alice from Domino's Pizza approaches you to design and build an event micro-site for their upcoming super bowl promotion. It's a basically a fancy web page. You have a Why Conversation with Alice, and agree to an objective for the project, metrics to gauge progress toward the goal, and a rough value to the organization for the success of the project. In a situation like this, it's conceivable that value to Domino's might be in the seven figures (or, that failure would cost them seven figures). If that's the case, you could almost certainly sell the project - i.e., building a single web page - for $100k. Even if it took you 100 hours, you'd be making an effective hourly rate of $1000 Here's the counter example: Bob from Bob's Pizza approaches you to design and build a website for his single location pizza place. He wants all the usual restaurant stuff: online menu with pictures, info about the restaurant, contact info for calling in an order over the phone, location of the restaurant with a fancy interactive map, and oh by the way, online ordering that accepts all major credit cards, apple pay, google wallet and paypal. And while you're at it, could you also do one of those pizza trackers like dominos has that sends updates to the customer as their pizza is prepared and delivered? You have a Why Conversation with Bob. The objective, metrics, and value of the project are hazy ("my brother in law told me we should get a website, so I called you"). Bob has no idea how much the website might increase sales, never mind other intangibles like brand or goodwill. You push him on it and has guesses that the site might increase his sales by a few hundred bucks a month. And to be honest, Bob says, if it did much more than that, he wouldn't be able to keep up with demand because they're already crazy busy keeping up with walk-in traffic from the local college. Would Bob agree to $100k for the project? Heck no. He prolly would not even agree to $10k. The trouble is, Bob's perception of the project value is very low. If he paid more than a few thousand bucks for all that work, he'd feel like he was losing money on it. So... For the Domino's project - where the labor intensity is low, but the perceived value of the project is high - value pricing is a perfect fit. For Bob's Pizza - where the labor intensity is high, but the perceived value of the project is low - value pricing doesn't work. What do you do for Bob? Bill him hourly? NO! HE DOESN'T NEED THE WEBSITE HE DESCRIBED. You either reject the work and spend more time try to attract clients like Dominos OR prescribe something else for Bob where the labor intensity for you and the perceived value for him are not out of whack. Maybe something like a facebook page, or a simple single page landing page for the business so at least they have some basic online presence. That's it for today. I'm JS and this is Ditching Hourly. Thanks for listening. The next time someone asks you for your hourly rate, this is what you should say: "I don't have one." To learn what to say next, visit http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Ditching Hourly 023: Converting Hourly Clients To Value Pricing Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today, I'm going to talk about how to transition your existing hourly clients over to value pricing. It's wicked hard They don't think of you the way you want them to It'd kind of like being in the friend zone Probably easier to find new clients who don't have you pigeonholed in the wrong place BUT if you love the client or whatever, and want to give it a try, here are some tactics for you Quietly lay the ground work while still billing hourly Try to gain more access to business people (e.g., founder, president, ceo, sales director) vs tech people (dev lead, dev manager, project manager, cto, even cio) Start probing for business cases behind specific requests Politely offer alternative solution when they occur to you Wait for an opportunity to quote a new chunk of work Pull your business contacts into the "scope" meeting Have a Why Conversation to get at the desired business outcomes Present a proposal with both and hourly estimate and a fixed price What you SHOULD NOT do: Don't barge into their office a say "so, we're going to do value pricing from now on!" Don't try to explain what value pricing even is How you price is none of their business But if they ask, say "based on past experience with this sort of thing" That's it for today. I'm JS and this is Ditching Hourly. Thanks for listening. The next time someone asks you for your hourly rate, this is what you should say: "I don't have one." To learn what to say next, visit http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com The next time a client asks you to justify an entry on your timesheet, go to http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Ditching Hourly 022: How To Grow Your Business Without Hiring Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today I talk about how to grow your business without hiring junior employees or farming out work to contractors. The next time someone asks you for your hourly rate, this is what you should say: "I don't have one." To learn what to say next, visit http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Ditching Hourly 021: Value Pricing in the Enterprise with guest Jeff Scornavacca Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today, I'm joined by guest Jeff Scornavacca. Jeff is a business consultant who helps companies improve their contracting and offer development processes. He's worked with clients like Johnson & Johnson, Ocean Spray Cranberries, Reebok, and many others. Jeff has been value pricing enterprise clients for years which is what we focus on in this episode. The next time someone asks you for your hourly rate, this is what you should say: "I don't have one." To learn what to say next, visit http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Ditching Hourly 020: Is Value Pricing Immoral? Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today, I'm going to answer the question: Is value pricing immoral? The next time a client questions one of your hours entries, visit http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Ditching Hourly 019: Can Any Type Of Project Be Value Priced? Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today, I'm going to talk about what sorts of projects can be value priced and which can't. Any kind of project can be value priced. BUT... not every kind of project can be value priced profitably. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

If you're barely getting any leads, you're not going to have the confidence to experiment with ditching hourly billing. Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today, I'm going to talk about gaining the confidence you need to experiment with new pricing techniques by increasing the number of leads you get on a weekly basis. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." —Albert Einstein Advice: Get more leads so you can start practicing new things. How to get more leads: Freely share your expertise with people who would be your ideal buyers. i.e., TEACH Ways to freely share your expertise: Speak at conferences attended by your ideal buyers Guest on podcasts listened to by your ideal buyers Blog for websites read by your ideal buyers Write for magazines read by your ideal buyers Build relationships with people who are trusted by your ideal buyers Open source some code that would be of use to your ideal buyers Publish screencasts that would be of use to your ideal buyers Publish a podcast that would be of use to your ideal buyers Host a webinar that would be of use to your ideal buyers Host a meetup that would be of use to your ideal buyers ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Shopify guru Kurt Elster explains how he used productized service to escape the hourly billing trap. Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today, I'm joined by guest Kurt Elster. Kurt is a Senior Ecommerce Consultant who helps Shopify store owners uncover hidden profits in their websites. Kurt is the founder of ecommerce agency Ethercycle, host of the popular Ecommerce Hacks Weekly video series, author of Ecommerce Bootcamp, and host of The Unofficial Shopify Podcast. In this episode, Kurt explains how he uses productized service to escape the hourly billing trap. Enjoy! More Information about Kurt: Websites Get Kurt's book at ecommerce-bootcamp.com Learn more about Kurt at kurtelster.com Hear Kurt's advice at unofficialshopifypodcast.com Work with Kurt at ethercycle.com Learn from Kurt at Ecommerce Hacks Weekly Social Media https://twitter.com/kurtinc https://www.linkedin.com/in/kurtelster That's it for today. I'm JS and this is Ditching Hourly. Thanks for listening. The next time someone asks you for your hourly rate, remember to visit http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Using the concepts of high-touch, low-touch, and leverage in your mix of products and services. Links Concierge medicine Offering Mix Graph Offering Mix Medical Analogy Sign off If you bill by the hour and would like to learn how to significantly increase your income, please go to http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Escape the feast/famine cycle by building a product ladder. Hello! and Welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today, I'm going to talk about how to escape the feast/famine cycle by building a product ladder. HOUSEKEEPING The 4 phases of engagement is something I heard first from Blair Enns of WWP in a post called "We Will Diagnose Before We Prescribe" If you bill by the hour and would like to learn how to significantly increase your income, please go to http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

How to break the habit of trading time for money with productized services. Today, I'm going to talk about how to break the habit of trading time for money using something called productized services. Topics covered include: What is a productized service? What are the pros and cons of a productized service? What goes into creating a productized service? ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Special guest Ron Baker talks about overcoming pricing objections, managing scope creep, safely offering guarantees, and much more.Today I’ve got a very special episode of Ditching Hourly for you. I'm joined by value pricing pioneer, Ron Baker.Ron is a recovering CPA who began value pricing in 1989. He’s the author of seven best-selling books, including: Pricing on Purpose; Measure What Matters to Customers; and Implementing Value Pricing. He’s the founder of pricing think-tank VeraSage Institute and a radio talk-show host on the VoiceAmerica.com show: The Soul of Enterprise.This episode clocks in at nearly an hour - which I realize is longer than usual - but you’re going to want to listen to every single minute of it because Ron drops non-stop value bombs.Just to give you a taste, here are some of the killer quotes Ron shares: “The billable hour takes your focus away from measuring what matters to the customer.” “The billable hour delivers a lousy customer experience.” “Focusing on the tasks comes at the cost of focusing on the value.” “People don’t want to hear about the contractions, they want to see the baby!” “Value pricing is a skill like golf or tennis. The more you do it, the better you get.” “Don’t ask your client ‘What do you need?’ ask ‘What are you trying to achieve?’” “If you prescribe without diagnosis, it’s malpractice.” “A professional takes responsibility for creating an outcome, not delivering a series of tasks.” “What the client is trying to achieve determines the scope of work.” “Time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted.” “We have to get over the idea that we are pricing a series of tasks.” “Value is not a number, it’s a feeling.” “Two options encourages a price decision. Three options encourages a value decision.” “It’s a huge fallacy to think that just because you’re giving a fixed price, you’re not scoping.” “When would you rather find out your client is unhappy with your price: before you do the work or after?” Links Ron Baker on Twitter Implementing Value Pricing Pricing On Purpose Verasage Institute Seinfeld clip of indecisive carpenter TSOE #76: Lessons from the Trading Game Change Order Boat Extraordinary Guarantees by Christopher Hart ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

How to get paid for projects 100% up-front. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

My #1 tip for writing proposals that close. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The three types of questions you must ask your prospect before writing your proposal. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Guest James Jeffers shares his recent success with his transition to value pricing. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Has a client ever questioned your timesheets? Or asked you to eat hours? Or demanded that you split the difference on a blown budget? If so, you've been caught in the hourly trap. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

The only three numbers that matter when calculating profitability. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Internalizing the idea of mutual profit. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Guest Ed Kless explains why hourly billing is immoral, dispels the biggest myths of business, makes predictions about the future of money and more.Links Ed's website Ed's Twitter Ed's VoiceAmerica radio show Ed's book Pricing On Purpose Verasage Institute ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Learn three safe and simple tactics that will help you make the transition from hourly billing to value pricing. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Value pricing defined. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Why hourly billing is bad for you, your work, and your clients. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Ditching Hourly: who it's for and what it's about. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!