In the second episode, we speak to Andrea Stone, service director for Children's Social Care in Dudley and Emina Atic-Lee, service manager at Surrey and Borders Partnership NHS Foundation Trust and a member of our National Advisory Forum. The forum provides expert advice, support and challenge to our work and how we achieve our objectives. Both have been registered social workers for over 20 years. They talk to us about why diversity data collection is key to practice and highlight its importance.   Transcript Ahmina Hi, I'm Ahmina Ahktar, Head of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion at Social Work England. Welcome to this is Social Work, a podcast from the specialist regulator for social workers, Social Work England. Equality, diversity, and inclusion are sent forward to our work as an effective regulator, an employer. They are inherent in our values, which are to be fearless, independent, transparent, ambitious, collaborative, and to act with integrity. As part of our equality, diversity, and inclusion action plan, we made a commitment to better understand the social work profession. We're doing this by actively seeking diversity data from social workers on our register to help us to continue to ensure our processes are fair and to set a benchmark for further insight to support this work and following a successful first podcast season. These special podcast episodes will focus on diversity data collection. In this episode, I'm joined by Andrea Stone, Service Director for Children's Social Care in Dudley and Emina Atic-Lee Service Manager at NHS Foundation Trust. Emina is also a member of our National Advisory Forum. The forum provides expert advice, support, and challenge to our work and how we achieve our objectives at Social Work England. Both have been registered social workers for over 20 years. They talk to us about why diversity data collection is key to practice and highlight its importance. We hope you enjoy. So I'm delighted to be joined by Andrea and Emina today. So before we go any further, I'm gonna ask you to introduce yourself. So I'll start with Andrea. Can you say who you are, your job title and link to the social work profession? Andrea Okay. I'm Andrea Stone and I'm service director for Children's Social Care in Dudley. And I've been a social worker for about 22 years. Ahmina Thanks Andrea, and we'll go to Emina. Emina Hi. So I'm Emina, I'm a registered social worker. I've been social worker for the same time as Andrea, 22 years, and I worked for Local Authority for 22 years after the last year when I joined the NHS. I'm also a member of the National Advisory Forum, which works with Social Work England closely, and I've been a member since March 2020 when it first kind of formed. Thank you both. So we've been talking about the importance of diversity data. In part one, we were talking about the importance of providing information about our identities and how providing information about our characteristics has become commonplace. And we're often asked to share this data when we apply for a job or a course or when we register with the new service. And in this part of the podcast, we'll continue to explore this, and look for some thoughts and reflections from Emina and Andrea. So I'm just going to move on to my first question. Why is it important for social workers to share this data with us? So, I'll start with you Emina. Emina Yes, thank you. I've been thinking about this and I think as a registered social worker, I feel a real sense of belonging within the social work community. I'm really aware that this community is very kind of wide and diverse, as over 22 years I worked with colleagues, when we write your backgrounds in terms of culture, ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability, and I think it's this kind of richness and diversity that makes social work of the most resourceful professions in the public sector. I think they to serve the needs of our diverse communities. And I think this is something we need to feel quite proud of as a profession. And I think the only way for us to have a clear sense of who the eyes are in the profession, and what our identity represents is for social workers to share their personal characteristics with Social Work England, at the point of kind of registering or renewing our registration. And then what would happen, I think is social workers, we would have access to overall figures collected. And I know as enough member that when social work England writes their annual report, there's a really good data around diversity and equality. And we need to, I think, contribute to that. And I think we also hopefully make sure as a workforce we are kind of better presented within social work itself and enough as well. And I think we'll also, hopefully we'll have the regulator kind of have a better understanding. Who we are, so they're better equipped to meet our needs and ensure there's a fairness at every level. Ahmina Thanks, Emina really helpful to hear your reflections. If we come to you, Andrea. Andrea Yeah, so for me, I think it's really important so we can have Social Work England and social work itself have a really good understanding about the makeup of the social workers across the system. And when we think about geographically where they work, where there are more social workers with different protected characteristics, where they are, are there areas where there aren't any, but then we would like to have more. And I think it also helps us to evidence to the communities that we have the right workers available that look like the communities that they serve really. So I think that's really important. And the same way that we expect when we work with our families and communities, we wanna have a good understanding about their areas of protected characteristics, what, where the diversity is and when we think about things, for example, health inequalities. That information that helps us to know whether we're providing a good service or whether or not there's things we need to do differently. So I think it's really important that people are able to be willing to give their data around diversity issues so we know exactly what's there, how we might meet their needs, or where there are any gaps. Ahmina Thanks Andrea. Really helpful. And Emina, you touched on social workers sharing their diversity data as part of the renewal process. So in part one,  I explained that over the last year we'd been asking social workers to record their diversity data, but the numbers were lower than we'd hoped. And that's why we've decided to include the diversity questions as part of our renewal process because renewals is when we experience the greatest engagement with our processes. So we really hope that that's gonna continue to boost our numbers and we can see that there has been an increase. So what are your thoughts on including these questions as part of the renewal process? Um, if I come to you first, Emina. Emina So I think it feels absolutely right. The social work is being quite proactive about this, and I think there's a thinking creatively and making it easy for social workers to share data if they want to do so. What I think is important during the renewal process is that social workers are giving real clarity as to why they're asked to share their press information so they can make informed decisions, and I think this has been achieved. If you look at the current process and the explanation offered when you first try to renew your registration, I think that's pretty clear. So people are able to make those decisions and it is crucial that, you know, at that point the questions are short to the point. And I know the social workers, especially frontline social workers, a really short of time. So doing anything that requires a long time may not be possible. And I think also what it does at that point, it kind of, when you are renewing registration, it's a good point to think about your identity I think as well. Because for all of us, I think it reminds us what we as individuals bring to our social work practice and how we work with our colleagues, how we work with our communities. So it's a good point, how to pause and think, you know, who am I and how this impacts on, on the work that I do. Ahmina That's great. Thank you. And if I come to you, Andrea, for your reflections. Andrea Yes. So I think it's really important to ask around the time of registration, and I agree with Emina that it gives people an opportunity to think about their identity. But I also think that bit around why we're asking, why social working than they're asking is really important. And I would go further and say that because there is some reluctance or there may be some reluctance from some people to do that. Almost saying why we are doing it and then being able to demonstrate evidently in the future what's been done with that data because of the reluctance. So I think it's important to ask the question, but definitely be able to evidence what difference it's gonna make to, to social workers and, and particularly for workers that might feel there's some detriment to them by providing their data. Ahmina Thank you both. And, and in part one, we talked about how important it is for us as a professional regulator to have this data and that diversity data, alongside other data, really helps us to have a fuller picture of the makeup of the register to help us identify any issues and enable us to address them. And really helps us to kind of give a bit more of an insight around how we can potentially improve our processes as well. So we know anecdotally that there's an over representation of black and ethnic minority social workers and men in our fitness to practice processes. So being able to evidence that by having a fuller data set would really enable us to explore those issues further. So we really want to think about how we can use this data effectively. And the more that we have, the more we were able to use that as an evidence based, we're able to support in exploring these issues further. We also intend to publish this information anonymously and we really hope that we'll be able to share this data with other policy makers and leaders and also enable them to use this data to be able to ensure that their processes are equitable and inclusive too. So in relation to that, then, how do you see the collection of diversity data helping the sector in the long run? To improve the profession and really think about how we can support our ambitions as a profession around equality, diversity, and inclusion. So if I come to you, Andrea. Andrea Yes. So I think, you know, being able to gather the data will help with some of those sort of trends and being able to evidence things, you know, and we know that the work that we do is not always about numbers and number crunching, but it does assist. It does assist as well as the anecdotal information that we have. There are times when we, we need more than what we think. We need to have some evidence for that. So when you talked about the, you know the overrepresentation, within practice element, we know that certainly within other elements of the, of the workforce or social work practice there's over representation in other places as well. And I would just want to encourage people to provide that data and not see necessarily as a negative. Because if we're going to develop and grow and meet needs or challenge, we need some evidence to say why we're challenging something and without. It's difficult to do that. And I know when I've spoken to some black and ethnic minority colleagues about, you know, updating the data, you know, some said, well, I hadn't really thought about it, didn't really think it was important, you know, everybody's in a bit of a hurry these days. So I think it's really good that Social Work England have taken the time to really try and promote that and hopefully through things like this podcast, we can get people to understand what the benefits. Ahmina Absolutely. Thanks Andrea. And I think we are really trying to think about different ways that we can communicate that message that both you and Emina have talked about. And again, speaking to your point earlier that people are, and social workers in particular are really busy, especially when on the front lines. So trying to find different ways to get the message out feels really important. So you're absolutely right. We hope that this is another means of getting the message out and getting people. To kind of take this call to action, to share their data and really help us improve our processes, but also potentially processes across the sector. So coming to you on the same question, Emina, how do you see the collection of diversity data helping the sector in the long run? Emina Well, I was thinking more about a kind of regulator being well equipped. Meet the needs of social workforce and kind of contribute to becoming stronger, more resilient force as well in a way. And I think you can only do that if you understand. You know the makeup of who are the social workers in this country? You know, are we meeting the needs of the community appropriately? Also, I was thinking in cases where there's a fitness to practice and looking at that data as well, if there is an insight that a particular group of social workers, it's perhaps disproportionately presented. I'm hoping that will lead to curiosity as to why that is. What are the kind of wider social issues that are contributing to that in particular past the country. So I think social working can really help for that in terms of thinking what is there, what's happening out there with social workers when it comes to fitness to practice. And the final bit for me is about the kind of voice of social work profession. And I think us knowing who we are, knowing our identity, being able to give our, you know, have our voice. It will almost contribute us being kind of stronger in, in being able to talk about ourselves as a workforce, as a profession. Often we are very good as social workers advocating on others' behalf and presenting individuals we work with, but other things we are so good in actually saying this is who we are and we are proud of identity and this is what we do. So I'm hoping, you know, this process and people sharing their identity will help. Ahmina Thank you and some really interesting reflections from both of you. I suppose just as a, as an additional question, and I think you've kind of covered this in some of your responses, but I think maybe just to focus in a little bit more, what do you think the implications are if we don't have this data for the profession? So if I go to you, Andrea. Andrea I think that would be really disappointing in as much, I think there's lots more to do around diversity and individual local authorities will be doing some work around their EDI agenda and what they're doing with their workforce and their communities. And I think for Social Work England, not to have that in terms of, you know, the hundred thousand or so social workers that are across England would not give us the opportunity to be able to really progress some of the things we've talked about today. So even if I think about, you know, myself as a black assistant director and how there's a lack of data there now in terms of across the country where there are other assistant directors and which parts of the country they're in. So I think at every level throughout the system, we should have the data that helps us to be able to develop and strengthen the social work profession so that you can offer a good service to children and families, and the data will obviously help us to do that. Ahmina Thanks, Andrea. I think I fully support Andrea's view around this really, and I'm thinking about a social work profession, but also about Social Work England as a regulator coming into place back in, was it early 2020 or December 2019, and thinking about that and how much we have achieved already. So I think this is kind of not having this data. We'll miss the opportunity as a profession to grow and develop and ensure that Social Work England, as our regulator knows who we are, understands what we need and that ensures that all the processes in place, so, which there are many, a really fair and inclusive. That's what we need to focus on. And I think this is a step towards. Thank you and I can really speak to that because obviously, um, as the head of equality, diversity, and inclusion at Social Work England, this data will really support me when I'm reviewing a lot of the processes. Um, and really thinking about how we ensure that we are, um, equitable and inclusive in everything that we do. And I think really being able to work and report from a strong data set will really assist that as Andrea has already touched upon. So it's been really interesting to hear your reflections on this. So I'm gonna bring this to a close with what's the most important thing you'd like people listening to take away from this discussion? So if I start with you, Emina. Emina Yeah, so I think what I'd like to say, I think thinking about the message to give to our peers, our social workers is, you know, please think about the value of sharing your personal characteristics with Social Work England. And I think by doing this, we are making ourselves more visible as a profession, and we are saying that we are really proud of who we. But I reflect back on my career in social work. I think the demographic of social work profession has really changed immensely over the last 20 years. When I initially trained in 99, finish my training in Bristol University, it was a very different group of students to, I go yearly and do, social work guest lecturing at King University in London. And I look at demographic there. And, whether it's an age of social workers, whether it is the ethnic identity, disabilities etc. And I see the real wide range of people who are coming into social work. And I think we need to celebrate that. We need to use that. It's a really rich tapestry to work from. So by enabling social work to know that, I think we'll just help further in developing the profession. So just remember those things that, you know, we are very good. And just finally, you know, just thinking that yes, you know, our needs as social workers need to be met by the regulator as well in a way. And if there is a knowledge and understanding of who we are, I think that will help in ensuring that, does everything they can do to ensure that it, everything is fair and inclusive. So I think that's my kind of final thoughts. Ahmina Thank you, Andrea. Your final reflection. Andrea Yeah. So my, my final thoughts really, and my plea would be for social workers to, you know, put their information about their areas of diversity. And like Emina says, for the regulator, our regulator to be able to assist and look at some of those issues, whether it's you know, anti-racist practice within work, how are they going to do that if they don't have the details around the makeup of the people that are the social workers across England? So I would say it was very important to do that. But I also recognise that there'll be some reluctance about that and would encourage people to say, you know, to have the view that if we want there to be change, you know, across the system, in the areas that people are concerned about around diversity, then we have to start with having some data to evidence some of the concerns that people have. Ahmina Thank you. So thank you both for joining me today and sharing your reflections. And I'm gonna take your call to action, Andrea, and run with that. And I'll say it again that I think social work is an incredibly unique profession and it's really well placed to lead the way driving forward, equality, diversity, and inclusion. And by providing this data, all social workers are really helping us to ensure the fairness of our process for social workers and supporting us to build a better picture of the profession and more broadly, also enabling other policy makers and leaders to make better informed decisions about the sector. Thanks again to Emina and Andrea for joining me today. If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisisSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts. You can find out more about the collection of diversity data on our website. Thank you for listening.

In the first of our one-off episodes, our head of equality, diversity and inclusion, Ahmina Akhtar is joined by Duc Tran, co-chair of the Equality Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Group for the British Association of Social Workers and Transformation Programme Manager at Brent Council. Together with Catherine Witt, regional engagement lead for the northeast and the Humber at Social Work England, they share what the collection of diversity data means to their organisations and outline its importance for the social work sector.   Transcript Ahmina Hi, I'm Ahmina Akhtar, head of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion at Social Work England. Welcome to this is Social Work, a podcast from the specialist regulator for social workers, Social Work England. Equality, diversity and inclusion are central to our work as an effective regulator and employer. They are inherent in our values, which are to be: Independent, transparent, ambitious, collaborative, to act with integrity. As part of our equality, diversity, and inclusion action plan, we made a commitment to better understand the social work profession. We're doing this by actively seeking diversity data from social workers on our register, to continue to ensure our processes are fair and to set a benchmark for further insight to support this work on following a successful first podcast season. These special podcast episodes will focus on diversity data collection. In this episode, I'm joined by Duc Tran, co-chair of the Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Group at BASW, British Association of Social Workers and Transformation Program Manager at Brent Council. I'm also joined by my colleague Catherine Witt, regional engagement lead for the northeast and Humber at Social Work England. They share what collection of diversity data means to their organisations and outline its importance for the social work sector. We hope you enjoy. So, hello Duc and Catherine. It's great to welcome you to have a discussion with me today, about the collection of diversity data as part of our renewal process and really thinking about how important it is. So, before we go any further, can I ask you to introduce yourselves? So, I'll start with you, Catherine. Catherine Hi, yes, I'm Catherine Witt and I am the regional engagement lead for Social Work England in the northeast of England and also the Humber. I'm a social worker. I've been a social worker for 30 years and I've got a real interest inequality and diversity and have been a champion in Social Work England. So it's really nice to be part of this podcast. Ahmina Thank you Catherine. And Duc? Duc Hi, I'm thanks for inviting me. I'm the co-chair of the EDI Advisory Group for the British Association of Social Workers, and I've been a social worker for over 20 years. So equality and diversity and inclusion are part of my passion and interest. Ahmina Thank you. So I'm really pleased to have you here today. And,we've talked about, the importance of diversity data together in the past, in various conversations. And we all know that for most of us, providing information about our characteristics has become common place. We often get asked for this data as part of applying for a job or a course or when we register with a new service. Often I still hear questions about why we need this information, why it's really important, why it's necessary, what we are going to do with it, and does it actually really make a difference. So it feels really key for us to explore that today. And for Social Work England, collecting this data forms part of our commitment to enhance fairness, equality, diversity, and inclusion across the profession. So today I wanna start with asking you why you think it's important for social workers to share this data. So I'll start with you, Catherine. Catherine Yeah, I think it is really important that we get this data. We want to be able to report and analyse from a really good solid evidence space. And to do that obviously we need the information. It's going to really help us build a much more accurate and detailed picture of the social work profession and really sort of ensuring fairness in our processes and better understanding the impact of our policies, you know, such as the annual review of CPD, etc. So it's really important that we get this information just to provide that solid evidence base. Ahmina Thank you Catherine. And Duc? Duc Yeah, pretty much on what Catherine was saying. I think it does offer us an opportunity to get a better understanding of the workforce, especially around the protected characteristics. This information can also help us to better understand our diversity and supporting future research and service planning. And finally, I would say that it's an opportunity to, for us to personally reflect on our identities, and our place in a very diverse workplace. So, you know, it's a special opportunity I think to identify who we are clearly and to think about the other aspects of our identity and how that relates to other people as well. Ahmina Thank you, Duc. And in your role in the advisory group chair at BASW, I know we've had some conversations about the importance of this data and actually it's something that the sector is really asking for. And actually, we put a collective call to action from BASW, from the unions, and from the directors of both children's and adult services, really showing their support for collecting this data. And again, for the reasons that you highlight that it's useful for us to be able to improve the fairness of our processes, but actually it also means that other organizations and services are able to use that data to really ensure that their processes are fair and equitable as well. So thank you both. And over the past year, we've been asking social workers to record their diversity data, to help us build a clear understanding of the makeup of the register. As you both highlighted we really wanted to boost our response rate, and we've started to include these questions in our renewal process because that's where we get the greatest engagement. So I'd just like to ask you for your thoughts on including these questions as part of our renewal process. So I'll come to you first this time Duc. Duc Yeah, I think it would be helpful really, especially if this information has not been thought about or people have not had a chance to think about it before. However, I do think that it's really important that the process, and the renewal questions are clear and supportive, and you know, that it doesn't expose, a lot of concerns and unnecessary distress as well. For instance, certain learning disabilities and mental health conditions have been hidden in the past because of the stigma associated with it. And I do feel that it's an opportunity here for people just to think about where they stand with these aspects of their identity. You know, and if they have any concerns, perhaps this is an opportunity in itself to start talking about it because it helps, doesn't it, to destigmatize, you know, the, uh, these kinds of, you know, issues in, in the workforce. Ahmina Thanks, Duc. Really helpful. And I think it's always been challenging when we think about the ways in which we ask these questions. There's been quite a lot of thought. There are differences in the way that different organisations ask these questions. We do really like to regularly review, think about best practice. We're currently having conversations with other regulators and thinking about what we can learn from each other and the different approaches. We are really keen to learn from the sector and things that they feel are helpful in asking these questions. And we want to increase some engagement around it. So Catherine will be able to talk a little bit more about the conversations that she and the other regional engagement leads have around some of this in the workshops that they run. So that's a nice segway to you, Catherine. Catherine Yeah, and I think just having said as part of the renewal process, and I think that is really important, because it is about professional responsibility and, you know, having regard to that and being really aware of what we are collecting and why we're collecting it. So I think, you know, it feels for me as a social worker, as very much part of my social work identity to embrace equality and diversity and to make sure that we've the right information from the right people at the right time. And I think having spoken to people, you know, in the field, social workers, there is a real, I'm gonna say excitement, but a real sort of enthusiasm to get the right information so that we can have that data and that we can start evidencing some of the areas where there might be discrimination. Social workers might be impacted by inequality, you know, for example, in fitness to practice so that we can have that information to hand. So yes, I do think that there is a general enthusiasm in, but from social workers to be part of this and to provide that information. Ahmina Thanks, Catherine. And I think since we have included this information in our renewal process, we can gradually see the response is increasing, which is really promising. And to link to that enthusiasm, I suppose. I know that there are also some murmurs and some concerns around sharing this data. Why do you think social workers may be reluctant to share their data? So I'll come back to you on that one, Catherine. Catherine Yeah, I mean, I think we get asked for a lot of information and we always want to sort of understand where that information is going. But I suppose we really want to reassure social workers that this information will be used sensitively and appropriately, and it won't affect their application to join the register or it won't impact on any renewal process. And it certainly won't be considered within any fitness to practice process or complaints or proceedings. I mean, we have got very strict regulations around data and it will be stored within an online account, and it can be shared or changed at any point. And there's lots of information on our website that can provide some reassurance. But we know from speaking to people with lived experience and to social workers, personal information is one of the most important things, and we need to treat it with high regard, with great sensitivity, and it needs to be used for the right purposes. Ahmina Thanks Catherine. A lot of nodding from, from Duc there. Obviously listeners, you can't see that, but I'm hoping that enthusiasm will come across over to you, Duc. Duc Definitely. I absolutely agree with what Catherine says. I think it's really important that social workers need to know clearly that this information will be used sensitively in the correct way and that by disclosing their personal information, it's not going to penalise them in terms of their practice. I think that's really key. Getting back to the question really, why are they reluctant to share information? I think some of the information can really be sensitive, can really be distressing because of prior treatment or previous treatment when people did disclose their information. Not necessarily in the workforce or workplace, but it could be, you know, in other parts of their life as well. So that's why there is a sense of, there can be a sense of distress and anxiety around the disclosure of such information. Ahmina Thanks Duc. And moving on to thinking about the long-term benefits of having this diversity data. As a professional regulator, having information about those we regulate is crucial. And collecting this information along with the other data that we collect provides us with a fuller picture to help identify any issues and to address them. Also, by giving us an understanding of where social workers might face inequality or discrimination. And also, by publishing this information anonymously, we'll also really hope that the insight that we share will support other policy makers and leaders to think about their own processes and think about how they can ensure that they are equitable and inclusive too. So, thinking about the long-term benefits then how do you see the collection of diversity data helping the sector in the long run? So if I come to you first Catherine this time. Catherine I mean, good data and robust data has to be a good thing in the long term, that's what we base lots of decisions on. We can spot anecdotal things and provide evidence to support that we are ambitious as an organisation and we are fearless and we want to really tackle discrimination, or any inequalities that we in Social Work England are responsible for in terms of processes and policies, but also in the wider profession. And it's some of those basic demographics, so that we know what our social work register, that we know who's there, what they are and who they are and that we can make appropriate decisions. And invest in the profession as a result. Ahmina Thanks, Catherine. And I think, talking about our wider commitment, I think we've really committed to undertaking a range of research and really tried to be evidence based in everything that we do. So, on the website, there are quite a few pieces of research that you're able to access some related to equality, diversity, and inclusion and, and others broader than that as well. But have some objectives included within that. And I think we are also a part of the anti-racism steering group and actually a lack of data has really acted as a barrier in progressing some of that work as well. So we have carried out an additional survey to support that work and used that research to start to formulate the beginning of a sector wide action. But actually having more of this data would've actively supported that. And I think that really speaks to what you said earlier in one of your responses, Duc, about the importance of this data in research. So I will, I will hand over to you on that note. Duc Definitely, this can only help the sector as a whole, really. And in fact, within the British Association of Social Workers, as the co-chair of EDI Advisory Group, I've always been advocating for improving data collection and data quality around diversity of the association members, and more generally in the profession that can only help us. For instance, we know from the COVID pandemic, which we're still recovering from, the disproportionate impact, you know, the members from the black and ethnic minority cohort has and also the disproportionate representation in disciplinary and grievance processes with Social Work England. And we are hearing that through our social work union,, so that this as well, so clearly, you know, this type of information is really important to collect, but over the long run, I think it's important to have that long term view. And by collecting this information and hopefully, you know, with the years to come, we would get a better understanding of how we fare and how we have improved in, not in terms of collection of the data, but in fact in terms of how we treat ourselves, whether, you know, this disproportionate representation. Have we filled the gaps? Have we developed those services that can actually help improve the outcomes for, for our social work members who are most vulnerable? Ahmina Thanks Duc. Aand yes, we, anecdotally we are aware of the disproportionate number of referrals that we receive for social workers from black and ethnic minority backgrounds and men. And that is something that we absolutely want to explore further, but it is difficult to be able to pursue that without this status or absolutely, yes one of the drivers behind this is wanting to collect this data and link to that question then, what are the implications of not having the data? What do you think we might lack more generally as profession if we aren't able to collect this data? So I'll come to you, Catherine. Catherine I think we lack knowledge and insight if we don't have it. We are working with anecdotal information, people's thoughts about things and not based on evidence. We can't have serious conversations at a strategic level or even on an individual and personal level if we don't know the full facts, and the makeup of our register is one of the basic things that we need to know to have those sensible and insightful conversations. And if we want to improve as an organisation, which is absolutely what we want to do, and to reflect the full diversity of our workforce, then we need to have this information. It can only be a positive thing and I think it will lead to much better decisions and much more considered development, of Social Work England. Thanks Catherine, Duc? Duc Yes I think certainly there is a place for qualitative data and lived experience and we do hear that, but I think the qualitative of information can further enhance definitely with data with the numbers supporting it. Particularly if we were to consider, you know, making an impact at a service level or a larger impact. And that's what we should be aiming to achieve. So the personal information that people do disclose actually can have a collective impact as well. And I think that's where having that raw numbers, those raw numbers would really help. Ahmina Absolutely. And I think it is about that fuller picture, isn't it? So we really value having that qualitative information and that's why we've invested so much in our regional engagement leads and really thinking about having those one-to-one conversations, thinking more about the importance of exploring what's happening and being able to capture more of that nuance through those conversations and engagements. But equally, that on its own doesn't offer a rich enough picture. And I think you're absolutely right that having the data alongside some of that and the conversations that I have with colleagues like yourself and organisations like BASW more broadly really support, our understanding and insight around some of this. So to bring us to a close then, what is the most important thing you'd like people listening to take away from this discussion? So, I'll come to you first this time, Duc. Duc I think in as much as I do believe that, you know, we need to disclose as much as we can, the reality is that it does come down to the individual person and their confidence as well, you know, where they're at in terms of disclosing their identity and how they are. Not everyone is the same. And I think with that in mind, I would say that it is personal information and I would encourage people to take an opportunity to reflect critically about what they're sharing. And if there were any concerns whatsoever, then, you know, maybe perhaps this would be an opportunity to talk about it with their line managers, with their peers. Because it's in that process that you start to discover and uncover more about okay, what are those concerns and whether that's gonna have any impact at all. And so what I would say therefore is that this is an opportunity for us to reflect about ourselves, and our place in quite a diverse workplace. So that's, that's my message. Ahmina Thanks Duc. And I think again, I think a good suggestion in terms of reflecting with peers and line managers, but I will also add to that, that the regional engagement leads obviously each have an area and are very clear on the processes around data collection and our approach to quality, diversity, and inclusion. So are also really happy to talk about any concerns that people might have as well. And at that point I'm gonna hand over to you, Catherine, for your closing thoughts. Catherine Yeah. My closing thoughts. This is about improving what we do in Social Work England, and for me it really reflects what social work is, which is about equality, diversity, and inclusion. And it is a real opportunity to demonstrate our values in Social Work England, to be fearless, independent, transparent, ambitious, collaborative, and act with integrity. And that's really important to me as a social worker, but it's really important to Social Work England. So that's what I'd like people to take away. And also just very finally is that we will treat this informatio with respect and regard, and with sensitivity and just to reassure people, you know, that it will be in safe hands and it will be used for improvement and doing things better. Ahmina Thanks, Catherine. So social work is a unique profession, because it has a profound impact on those who encounter it. And I see a huge amount of passion and motivation to make the profession better, I think every day. And prior to this role, I was a regional engagement lead and had the pleasure of talking to lots of social workers and seeing that passion in practice all of the time. And I still do that in a different capacity within this role. And I think one of the things that I'm really clear on is so many social workers really want the profession to be the best that it can be. And I really think that by providing your diversity data you'll help us to ensure the fairness of our processes for social workers and supporters to build a better picture of the profession. And again, as I said earlier, I think there's also something really important about the fact that there's a call to the sector from the sector. And there's something about really highlighting the fact that this is gonna be beneficial for us as an organisation, but for so many organisations as well, because it will support their leaders and decision makers to think about their processes fairness and ability of their processes as well. So, my final thought then is please, please log into your account today and consider sharing your data. Appreciate as, as Duc said, and we've acknowledged that there is a sensitivity around the data, but if you could just consider where you do feel comfortable sharing that, then we'd really value it. Thank you to Catherine and Duc, for joining me today and talking about the importance of data. Thanks again to Duc and Catherine for joining me today. If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisisSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts. You can find out more about the collection of diversity data on our website. Join us for our next episode where I'll be talking to social workers AM and Andrea to get their personal perspectives on the topic of diversity data. See you soon.