Among many notable things, Glenn Loury has been the first African American economics professor to get tenure at Harvard, an author and essayist, a firebrand on race issues from both the left and the right, and, in one dark chapter of his life, a cocaine addict who led a secret life on the streets.Now in his 70s and a professor at Brown University, Loury leads a semi-retired life, publishing video conversations with fellow academics and intellectuals for an audience of tens of thousands on his Substack, an endeavor that includes a long-running dialogue with the Columbia University linguistics professor and New York Times columnist John McWhorter. In covering some fraught territory—such as “The Unified Field Theory of Non-Whiteness,” “Living by the Race Card,” and “Turning the Tide on Affirmative Action”—Loury sometimes attracts intense criticism. When University of Pennsylvania law professor Amy Wax came on his show and made controversial remarks about Asian immigrants, he copped an earful. When he challenged recent anti-Trump comments made by Sam Harris, he upset a bunch of Harris stans (“I didn’t quite get right what he had said,” Loury says in our conversation. “My apologies, Sam, if you hear this, because I do like you”).But Loury has a long history of being an outsider and is unafraid to take principled positions that get him in trouble with his peers. He has an almost constitutional resistance to conformity. One thing he prides himself on, though, is having tough discussions on big topics, even with those who disagree with him. “I’m proud to be able to say that I can have cordial and productive conversations with them,” he says, “and I intend to do more of that.”We have video!Quotes from the conversationOn productive disagreementI’ve tried to have people on the [Glenn Loury show] who challenge me... Had Cornel West on the show and we had a wonderful conversation. I’ve had Briahna Joy Gray on the show. I’ve had Richard Wolff, the Marxist economist, on the show. These are people that come at the issues that I’m concerned about rather differently than I do, but I’m proud to be able to say that I can have cordial and productive conversations with them and I intend to do more of that.On being hard to pin downDuring the 2020 election season, I had a formula, which was I’m going to vote for Biden, but you shouldn't believe me because, if I were going to vote for Trump, I would never tell you. So if you ask me who I’m going to vote for, there’s no information in my response. On discussing TrumpOne of my points that I’ve been making over and over again in conversation with John McWhorter, who very forthrightly as a good New Yorker denounces Trump at every opportunity – he’s a moron, he’s an idiot, whatever – is that, hey, man, 45% of the population thinks the guy should be President. I mean, maybe we ought to think about why they think that. On watching what he saysI’m managing my brand, I must confess, by carefully selecting how it is that I react to the Trump phenomenon so as to be able to maintain plausible deniability.On independent thinkingI could report to you that I hate to be bullied. Don’t tell me what to think and don’t tell me what to say. You want to call me a name? Call me a name. But if you want to change my mind, you had better make an argument and it had better be a good one.On Sam HarrisSam Harris made a comment about suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop story and then I made a comment about Sam Harris. John McWhorter and I kicked that around. I took exception to what I understood Sam to say, but I didn’t quite get right what he had said. My apologies, Sam, if you hear this because I do like you.On how the internet is affecting cultureMaybe I’m going to say pessimistic because we are so polarized. I mean, to the point where large numbers of people question the outcome of elections. And that goes in both directions, by the way. Trump lost the most recent election for President and he’s an election denier – and his followers to the extent that they don’t acknowledge the legitimacy of Biden’s election – but believe me, that’s not over. There will be other elections. There will be different outcomes... On the other hand, it is possible to have a conversation with just about anybody instantly and to send it out to millions of people. And that’s really pretty cool. I don’t blame the medium for the fact that it can abet partisan polarization and division because it can also facilitate a different kind of discourse.On making the best case for the other sideI try to do that a little bit with the so-called steel-manning function in my own podcasts. When I hear an argument, I try to imagine and then articulate what I think the best case for the other side is. Ideally, if I do that well, the listener, if they tune in in the middle of the podcast, won’t know what side I actually hold. To the extent that I can succeed at that, I’m hopefully modeling a kind of intellectual openness and a kind of, if you will, epistemic modesty. This may be what I think, but I'm not sure it’s right. What’s the best case for the other side? That kind of thing.On his partnership John McWhorterI have great respect and admiration for John. I mean, we have this rapport. It’s kind of a shtick now. It’s kind of an act that we perform every other week, and I look forward to it.On the state of race relations in the USI think the idea that the United States of America is a white supremacist, racist nation founded on slavery and genocide... That idea in the 21st century is wrong.On holding unpopular positionsI’m worried about the victims of crimes, not only about the way we treat people who commit it... Have I lost friends? Yes, I’ve lost friends. And I’ve gained new friends.On changing his mindI’ve, over the course of my life, taken this position and taken that position and so on. And it’s not a pendulum swinging back and forth. That’s the wrong metaphor. I’m deepening and making more subtle and more nuanced the sensibilities that I bring to these questions... I don’t know how this all ends. And it does end. I’m painfully aware of the fact that we are all mortal. But I like to think that I’m on a higher plane today than I was 10 years ago or 20 years ago.On his double life while at HarvardI was a cocaine addict. Did stuff like that. I had a mistress stashed away that had blew up in my face when we got into fight that became public and she accused me of battery, which was not what happened... I was this bad boy with a nightlife and a kind of reckless disregard for the normal constraints. I thought I was Superman. I thought I was the baddest cat on the block.On finding religion and recoveringI went through the valley of the shadow of death and came out on the other side.On writing a memoirFor me, it’s very obvious that you must disclose discrediting information about yourself in order to win the confidence of the reader such that, when you get to the part where you want to glorify yourself, you have the reader’s credibility. So even if my goal is to toot my own horn, at the end of the day when they turn the last page of the book and I want them to think Glenn is really a wonderful guy, what a human being, what a life, to get there, we have to go through the valley of the shadow of death.On being a contrarian I call myself a contrarian. I say I don’t like bandwagons. Am I being a contrarian for contrarian’s sake? Am I refusing to acknowledge things that are true simply because most people think them to be true and I have to therefore be on the other side? Do I get a certain amount of self-aggrandizement and satisfaction from sneering at the popular opinion and taking the slings and arrows that come from that? Probably.Show notes* Glenn Loury on Substack and Twitter* Old-school video blog publication, Bloggingheads.tv, where it all started for Glenn * [10.00] Amy Wax saying controversial things on The Glenn Show* [12.00] Criticizing Sam Harris* [15.00] Talking about Trump* [17.50] Disagreeing with his own family* [20.45] Having people on the show who challenge him* [23.20] Not blaming the internet * [25.00] Hate Inc, by Matt Taibbi (paperback)* [27.00] Woke Racism, by John McWhorter* [28.45] Glenn’s tribute to John McWhorter* [31.45] State of race conversations in the U.S.* [34.00] “Unspeakable Truths About Racial Inequality in America,” by Glenn Loury, Quillette* [38.00] Glenn’s intellectual obituary to James Q. Wilson, from 2012* [41.35] Old Glenn/New Glenn* [50.00] Substack writers mentioned: Robert Wright, Matt Taibbi, Nikita Petrov, John McWhorter, Emily Oster, Alex Berenson* Bari Weiss interview with Glenn Loury, Honestly podcastThe Active Voice is a new podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro.Postscript  This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

No one covered the Johnny Depp–Amber Heard trial in quite the way that Jessica Reed Kraus did on Instagram and Substack, taking her readers into the courtroom, behind the scenes, and into some of the most salacious details of the actors’ personal lives. Near the start of the pandemic, the relatively unknown writer and influencer had pivoted from writing about home renovations and her four children in Orange County to something that she felt could bring people together in more civil conversations: celebrity gossip. Nearly two years on, Jessica has accumulated more than 1 million Instagram followers and more than 100,000 Substack subscribers. Now some of Hollywood’s biggest names turn to her to tell their sides of complex stories.. She got there thanks to her bold and gleefully obsessive coverage of trials involving Britney Spears, Ghislaine Maxwell, and—her breakout moment—Depp-Heard. When the Depp-Heard case began in April this year, Jessica recognized its significance and felt compelled to cover it, despite having no prior professional journalism experience. Through daily Instagram Stories and then in-depth Substack posts, Jessica relayed gossip she had gathered through the proceedings, as well as phone calls, texts, DMs, and more, much of it from close-to-celebrity sources who would never talk to the mainstream media. Her scoops—unfiltered, unsanctioned, and unabashed—touched on the tawdry and the truly scandalous, almost daring the powerful subjects to respond. So why has Jessica, who has been unafraid to take sides in the stories she’s covering, become one of the most trusted gossip writers among the Hollywood elite? What does her sudden success say about the rise of the influencer-reporter in the new media economy? And can the art of gossip be rediscovered on new platforms? All this, and more, in this week’s episode of The Active Voice.https://jessicareedkraus.substack.com/Show notes* Recommended read: The Queen: What She Meant to Me in Vicky Ward Investigates:* House Inhabit by Jessica Reed Kraus* Jessica Reed Kraus on Instagram and Twitter* Depp Vs. Heard / Pt .1—The Phone Call* [01:13] Speaking to Johnny Depp on the phone* [08:00] Growing an audience through the Johnny Depp–Amber Heard trial* [09:18] On respecting the art of gossip* [13:00] The reaction from mainstream media* [18:32] On gaining the trust of sources* [19:35] How it all started* [22:01] On being branded as an “anti-vaxxer”* [27:06] Being banned on Instagram* [29:31] Making turning a passion into a career* [31:39] On speaking to Courtney Love while washing the dishes* [32:50] Preferring being behind-the-scenes* Newsletter Breakdown—A Welcome Guide for NewcomersThe Active Voice is a new podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

A couple of days after I interviewed George Saunders for the first episode of this podcast, I caught up on some of his recent posts on Story Club, his writing-focused Substack. In “A Lost Speech, Found,” he wrote about rediscovering the script for a graduation speech he had given many years ago. The speech would earn him a reputation as “The Kindness Guy.”  “If the question ‘How should I live’ can be answered: ‘Live so as to minimize your regrets,’” he had said in that speech, “then I have to tell you: What you actually regret, when you’re older, is very simple: You regret the times you could have been kind, and weren’t.”Saunders, one of the world’s greatest short story writers and winner of the 2017 Booker Prize for his first novel, Lincoln in the Bardo, was certainly kind to me. We sat together at a lunch table under a tree in a Santa Monica park for an hour and half. George patiently answered my questions about how to live a good life as a writer when so many social and economic forces make it so complicated. We talked about modes of thinking and how to negotiate with one’s ego, and how he writes to tame his “monkey brain.” We talked about the trope of the starving artist, and what it takes to make a living as a modern-day writer. And we talked about the corrosive effects of social media, which in so many cases encourages and rewards the opposite of kindness. I can’t think of a better first guest for this podcast than The Kindness Guy. After the interview, George texted me to say, “Feel free to edit out any stupidity.” I couldn’t find any.Show notes*Story Club with George Saunders*Liberation Day: Stories, A Swim in a Pond in the Rain, Tenth of December: Stories, and Lincoln in the Bardo*Reporting on Trump rallies*[5:15] Reading comments and reviews*[8:07] Artistic pride and ambition*[11:25] The social media self *[16:13] Becoming a short story writer*[21:00] Life at 60*[27:55] Online personas and the act of writing*[37:57] The craft of story*[46:48] Story Club on Substack*[50:10] Juggling writing and life*[55:04] On Liberation Day*[1:00:39] Trying to be happyThe Active Voice is a new podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is edited and produced by Hanne Winarsky, with content production by Hannah Ray and production support by Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

Welcome to The Active Voice, a new podcast with Substack co-founder Hamish McKenzie about how great writers reckon with the only thing in the last 17,000 years to challenge the technological supremacy of writing: the internet. Through these conversations, we’ll explore how the world’s most important stories are told in a time when social media has come to dominate our minds and attention. Today, we start with George Saunders, one of America’s greatest living writers (and author of the wonderful Substack Story Club).This podcast is called The Active Voice because we enjoy the double entendre, and because it is about the writer in the arena: the writer who, despite the pressures of the social media moment, has the courage to say what they believe needs to be said; the writer who finds a way to speak truth to power; the writer who seeks understanding over takedowns. This podcast is for those who know that what you read matters and that great writing is valuable.  This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com